Dinosaur Jr (The Lung Cover)

[Nola]

hey guys.
i finally got an amp and i'm experimenting with it. i feel like my guitar sounds "spiky" and metallic, almost just like the sim i was using, which is pretty disappointing. But only sometimes, like when I hit notes hard. Is this just bad technique that i need to fix or is it mic placement or something else (like a pickup maybe?). i'm using a strat.

the vocal is just a scratch track that i'll redo. it's awful i just held the mic and talked into it hold the place of the vocal. i need to put a guitar solo in the middle 8 bars, too, so it won't be as boring when that happens. this is just a rough mix to see if the mix is okay and to figure out that metallic guitar sound.

some things i am concerned about:

1. the guitar might be too upfront?
2. low end is pretty boomy. since the song is sparse i thought it would be okay, but not sure.
3. metallic/spiky sounding guitar? kind of lacks definition and notes mush into one another. i used an re-11 right on the grill (i have an awful room)

thank you

edit: link removed b/c redoing it

 

[Robus]

Hi Nola. What I'm hearing is a cleanish guitar sound that is rather dark, has a nasally mid-range, and not much chime or sparkle on top. I think I am hearing proximity effect. I don't know the characteristics of your particular mic. I can push an SM57 right up against the grill cloth without hearing unpleasant proximity effect. If that isn't working with your mic, back it off and inch or a few.

Since the tone is dark, I'd be looking for more brightness through the amp eq, through the guitar choice and pickup, and mic placement. Where is the mic located in the diameter of the speaker? If it is out toward the edge, try moving it closer to the center of the speaker. Put it right where the dome in the middle meets the speaker cone to start, then work outward from there until you like what you are hearing.

I'm not sure what you mean by "metallic." I'm not hearing that. When you say the notes mush into each other, do you mean distortion? There is some distortion here, not lots, but some. Do you want a cleaner tone?

Maybe if you could describe the tone you are looking for. While I'm not familiar with this song, when I think of Mascis's tone, I think of a grungy distortion, way more distortion than you have here. Is that what you are aiming for? If so, you might need to rethink this. A small Fender amp at lower volume might not be the right tool for that job. You might be happier with the result if you work at identifying the tones that your particular amp does well. Then make those tones work in your music. That's always a better approach than attempting to make an amp sound like some other amp. Are you using any pedals?

1. For me, yes. I'd be thinking in terms of lowering, panning wide, and blending the guitars. Get the guitars out from under the vocal. Then again, that is pretty much what I always do with my guitars.

2. Yes, it's boomy. What bass setup did you use?

3. See above.

 

[Nola]

Thanks for the help, Robus.

Here is the original: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJGLp33KsFE

It's a pretty sparse mix imo. It almost sounds mono, with a few lines coming in l/r at times. I'll have to think how to widen my version. right now they're panned l/r but only like 30 not a hard pan. The fuzz to me almost sounds like it's on the bass in the original, but it's a cacophony of sound so it's hard to pick out what's what. The guitar tone is relatively clean for dinosaur jr, so I was trying to go for that.

But it seems to have more clarity than mine. I can't tell if it's my playing technique, the pickups, how i mic'd it...

The amp was only on 2. So it was pretty low, and I had the mic left of the cone a few inches, but right on the grill. For bass I used DI and then eq'd/cut the low end at 60hz and a -1db cut around 125hz. i think it's just a volume problem maybe where the bass has to come down a little? or is it an eq issue? i agree guitar must come down when vocal comes in, but since it was a scratch talking session i didn't mess with that too much but i hear it.

my main concern was the cleanish guitar sounds spiky/harsh at times. but i haven't mic'd an amp in forever so maybe that's how they sound, but it sounds like a sim to me.

 

[andrushkiwt]

At first, i thought it was sounding really good...it still kinda does, in a way... but then i heard this grit/overdriven/buzzy/fuzzy stuff that is like laying on the top end of the guitars. Do you hear it? The clean portion sounds real good, but I can't tell if that's a separate guitar w/ distortion or what, but it's really apparent once you pick it out. I couldn't avoid hearing it after that.

Drums are a little further back than I'd set them. Like, the mic is set up directly in front of the amp with a drummer way back in the room..that's how it comes off to me. Bass sounds good, to me, but also further back than that clean guitar.

small adjustments and this is looking good

 

[Nola]

At first, i thought it was sounding really good...it still kinda does, in a way... but then i heard this grit/overdriven/buzzy/fuzzy stuff that is like laying on the top end of the guitars. Do you hear it? The clean portion sounds real good, but I can't tell if that's a separate guitar w/ distortion or what, but it's really apparent once you pick it out. I couldn't avoid hearing it after that.

Yes, exactly, andru. Maybe it's the distorted pedal (panned right and low) I'm hearing metallic/spiky. It's a byoc big muff clone. I love it on leads, but on rhythm I was having a hard time dialing in anything that didn't sound like a harsh amp sim. the mix was too sparse (basically mono) and lacking power with the clean only so i added the 2nd guitar and panned both like l/r 30 to get a little bit of width.

I thought the clean had a bit of that harsh, too, like especially if i got excited and hit a chord too hard, but maybe it's the muff. To tame hard clean chord hits do people use compression or just redo the part?

Is there some trick to recording distortion pedals to get rid of that? It sounds JUST like amp sim distortion, which was such a disappointment.

 

[andrushkiwt]

i have no idea, i'd try to get it sounding better before recording it though. what's wrong with the drive channel on the amp, is that not enough? I'm not familiar with that pedal, so i can't really say anything specific about that sound... it could be a combination of pickups/amp adjustments/pedal adjustments/etc... it just sounds more like a problem at the source than a mixing problem.

 

[Robus]

Volume on 2 is going to be a problem, but we've talked about that. I know you are limited in the amount of noise you can make. Can you go a little louder without getting evicted? Every additional bit of volume with help that amp open up.

Sounds like you might want to move the mic inward toward the dust cap, and out away from the grill.

I'm not hearing harsh/spiky. Fender amps can sound brittle at lower volumes. If you can't turn up enough to push the amp into its natural compression zone, you might try doubling the part and lowering both in the mix. It might soften some of the sharp edges, if that's what you're hearing.

30% panning isn't nearly wide enough for guitars in my book. Not even remotely close to wide enough. But you've heard my mixes so you know where I'm coming from on this.

If you turn the guitars down, you'll probably be able to lower the bass as well.

Don't know about the pedals. I never use them.

 

[Nola]

i have no idea, i'd try to get it sounding better before recording it though. what's wrong with the drive channel on the amp, is that not enough? I'm not familiar with that pedal, so i can't really say anything specific about that sound... it could be a combination of pickups/amp adjustments/pedal adjustments/etc... it just sounds more like a problem at the source than a mixing problem.

the drive channel is fine but since i have neightbors on 4 walls so i can't really take advantage of it.

i will have to figure this out by experimenting more with it. maybe for the muff i can use a ribbon to tame it more. i used the re-11 on it and that mic has no proximity effect, so you lose some bass. i wonder if that makes it sound harsh.

 

[Nola]

Sounds like you might want to move the mic inward toward the dust cap, and out away from the grill.

Does moving in toward the dust cap make it have more clarity, then backing it from the grill gives more space? I think that's a good idea. I put it right on the grill thinking i'd eliminate this bad room, but maybe i should accept some bad room in exchange for a sense of space. i did add a little reverb to it, but i agree it still sounds too close. once i get a good vocal i'll lower the guitars and see if that helps, and if not i'll just redo it. i think i need to redo the muff with a ribbon to see if that tames it.

i actually had amp volume on 2.5 now that i look. on 4 it maxes out in volume and just gets more saturated as you up it, so i'm not that far from the loudest point. it's pretty loud on 2.5...i know it's not at the ideal volume there but it's still pretty loud for this setting.

 

[Robus]

Yeah, closer to the dust cap will give you more clarity usually. Outward sounds warmer. I play it by ear: if it sounds wooly, I move it closer to the dust cap. If it sounds tinny, I move it outward. But in my setup, most of the time I'm close to that place where the dust cap meets the cone.

Within reason, I wouldn't worry too much about the room when close-miking using a dynamic mic. Even if you're a few inches out, you're still close miking. The sound level coming off that speaker is going to be vastly greater than the room reflections coming back in, and SM57 style mics are designed to have pretty good off-axis rejection.

Why don't you render one of those guitar tracks by itself and post it on your Small Amp Thread so we can hear it clearly?

 

[Nola]

Yeah, closer to the dust cap will give you more clarity usually. Outward sounds warmer. I play it by ear: if it sounds wooly, I move it closer to the dust cap. If it sounds tinny, I move it outward. But in my setup, most of the time I'm close to that place where the dust cap meets the cone.

Within reason, I wouldn't worry too much about the room when close-miking using a dynamic mic. Even if you're a few inches out, you're still close miking. The sound level coming off that speaker is going to be vastly greater than the room reflections coming back in, and SM57 style mics are designed to have pretty good off-axis rejection.

Why don't you render one of those guitar tracks by itself and post it on your Small Amp Thread so we can hear it clearly?

thanks, robus. looks like i have a lot of learning and experimenting ahead.
i don't even own an sm57.

i'm going to experiment more with the re-11 and a ribbon. i'm actually okay with the tone other than the harshness b/c my reference point was a sim, and this is better than a sim, but it still has some of the "simy" harshness to my ears. maybe blending a ribbon in with the re-11 would help especially if they're aimed at different parts of the speaker. that's what i will try next. thanks for your help.