Digital Mixers vs. Analog Mixers...

[pisces7378]

What the hell is a DIGITAL mixer anyway? The reason I am posting this naive, "newbie" question isn't because I am all brand spanking new to recording, but because somehow along the way I just missed the birth of Digital mixers. Why do they call them digital mixers? Duhhh because they have digital chips inside... but why? There aren't any A/D Converters on board that when I plug my (analog) guitar into the mixer, it pops out on the other side all neatly like: 10010101001010101 . Or does it?

The Reason I ask is because I am moving back to the United State in around 6-8 montzhs and I am going to be overhalling my entire outfit. I will be buying a new PC/Mac (jury still out on that one), still be running my Logic Audio Platinum, maybe grab that nifty little Logic Controller. And maybe even a new sound card system. Now I have seen all along the way people saying... you need a good mixer... preferably a digital mixer.

Well so far I have been using the Delta 66 with the OMNI Studio breakout box. And since it is just me and my guitar playing over my midi files (drums and bass Midi'ed in by me and my Roland JV1010) I haven't needed to get caught up in a mixer. But when i get home I will be recording a full on band with drum parts chomping up 9 or so input/tracks. Needless to say my Delta-66/OMNI ain't gonna cut it.

Now MOTU has popped up with this 896 Firewire audio interface. As far as I can see, it too should take the place of any mixer I might need. But I have also read a review this month on this new TASCAM DM24. Now, this new TASCAM desk seems to have more features and a fully loaded Ferarri. And I read the entire article, which was filled with things I had never heard of and it never explained what the inherant difference is between an analog mixer and a digital one.

With the MOTU 896, it seems that is would finction much like my Delta66/OMNI package has. I plug my guitar/mic/whatever into the box, and it goes into the computer. The only difference being that with the OMNI the signal stay analog until it reaches the sound card located INSIDE the PC, where as teh MOTU has the chips OUTSIDE the computer inside the MOTU 896, feeding it all in via Firewire rather than the Delta-66 PCI slot card.

Where would the TASCAM D24 fit into this set up? Does it fit into this set up?

I know that the TASCAM is running like $2,399.

So I ask again for the sake of clarity. Why a digital mixer as opposed to an anlog one? And what exactly is digital about a digital mixer? Are the inputs analog and the outputs digital?

Oh yeah.. and please forgive me for displaying my embarassing ignorance on this matter.

Thanks guys,

Mike

 

[pisces7378]

Was this a stupid question?

 

[SirRiff]

I don't think so...

Greetings,

I am in no way an expert in this, but I will throw an idea out there and maybe someone will agree...

Woudn't a digital mixer just be like mixing on your computer? Containing a processor that moves around your data bit by bit, So all it does is give you a hardware interface to your A/D converted data?

There must be other advantages, but haveing a real physical interface to digital info is nice. The A/D converted stream comes from your breakoutbox, or from the firewire out of your soundcard or whatever, and you can mix it down?

I know that Mackie HD 2496 stand alone DAW has an optional digital mixer and it looks pretty cool....and they sell it as the greatest interface to their stand alone recorder...

I dunno, just an interface? or is that too simple
SirRiff

 

[mstudio1224@aol.com]

Digital Mixer

Well simply enough, with analog (it is what it is)
12ch board is a 12 ch board, with 4 eq, pre's, 4,8 buss etc....

Now a Digital Board, will have the same, well more channels
24ch with 8 buss, quality eq, effects, automation, better mic pre, AD/DA conversions (some boards) more routing scenerios than you can think.

Some people (such as myself) like hands on too, I dont like using a mouse for all my mixing, eq etc..

They do help in many of ways, but you need to ask :
IF IT WORKS IN YOUR SET-UP

I have the DM24 with a MDR24 all my stuff is hooked up MIDI & MOTU 2408MKII and I have access to all that I need, ((external MIC PRE, MASTERING UNITS)) so in MY SITUATION -- it works for me

 

[pisces7378]

mstudio1224@aol.com

Hey man,

Thanks for answering so quickly first of all. But like any good answer it also has inspired more questions.

1. What is the fundemental difference between the Mackie HDR24 and the MDR24? Other than the $1,000 or so.

2. If you have the MDR24, which is not a PC or a Mac... then what do you use the "MOTU 2408MKII Digital Interface" for?
The reason I ask is because I have been trying to think of a way to stop leaning on my PC or Mac so much. I have Logic Audio Platinum and a "good" sound card and all. But I would like to have another option to play with. Stand alone HD Recorders look quite nice to me. But not if I have to go off and buy a ton of $900 audio interfaces and sh&%. because after all that I could have just bought a FAT ASS computer of Mac with a FAT ass sound card system.

3. The digital mixer: Back to the original topic. Does this thing take my guitar, run the Analog to Digital conversion inside the digital mixer... then feed a digital signal direct into a (PC) hard disc drive? Because that is what the MOTU 896 does via Firewire. The digital mixer looks fucking brilliant! But it is like $2,400.

4. I am going to give you my scenerio and my present equipment list, and you tell me where my biggest weakness is and what you would replace. Keeping in mind that I am in Germany but will be moving home and will have to leave some things here behind... What gear should I abandon in Europe?

Recording: (multi-tracking [24 tracks]) 4-5 piece rock band.

Band:
- Drum set (8 mics going into 8 analog inputs coorisponding to 8 individual tracks for mixing later)
- 2 Electric Guitars (recorded individually or sometimes together) (miced Marshall stack, 1 to 2 tracks)
- Bass Guitar (same miced amp scenerio)
- Vocals (as many as 4 tracks per song)
- Midi (drum tracks, bass tracks, auxilary sounds, strings... 3-4 tracks)
****************************************
Ok that is my project...
Here is how I have BEEN doing it so far...
****************************************
Drums: Roland JV1010 Sound Module, w/ midi key controller through a Midiman Midisport 2x2 interface into Logic Audio Platinum 4.8.1 on a Pent III PC. Laying down the high hats, then "overdubbing" the snare, then the kick, then the symbols... time consuming shit here.

Bass: Same scenerio as the drums, except plaing bass lines.

Guitar: Direct recording through my Line 6 POD Direct Box through my M-Audio OMNI Studio breakout box into the Delta-66 sound card into Logic Audio.

Vocals: Same scenerio as the Guitar except with a Rode NTK Valve microphone.
*******************************************

As you can tell I have been doing it all by myself with MIDI and so fourth. But back hom in the US I will be m,icing real drums and using my band to play it all. So I need more Ins. I need to back away a bit from the PC/Midi/sequencing of it all... and start some real mixing. This leads me to think that I need a good and large mixer. Particularlly of the digital kind. (like the TASCAM D24). But I will still be using my PC as the HD recorder and I will still be using Logic Audio platinum. Is my sound card going to end up being my Akilies heel (sp?)? There is no way that I can squeeze 8-9 outputs out of the Delta 66 in order to propperly mic up a full on drum kit. I do not want to use the mixer to set the levels and then run a stereo signal from the mixer into the sound card on one or two tracks. That would eliminate my ability to adjust the different drum levels later.
Like sometimes I would like just som emore high hat here and there et cetera. (Is this what the MOTU 2408MKII is going to do?) Is it going to give me those in's and Outs? If that is the case and I am really software stuborned... then i could use the MOTU 2408MKII for ins and outs and use the soft-mixer in Logic Audio with the mouse like I have been. Right?
I know this is a mamoth of a post... but if bear with me then you just might be able to say one day that you helped the man that... wasted all his money and his music still sucks!

Anyway, thanks guys, this is still the best BBS.

Mike

 

[pisces7378]

Ok... maybe this question really is too long!

 

[AlChuck]

The digital mixer: Back to the original topic. Does this thing take my guitar, run the Analog to Digital conversion inside the digital mixer... then feed a digital signal direct into a (PC) hard disc drive? Because that is what the MOTU 896 does via Firewire.

Not quite. Comparing a mixer's job to the interface's like you did there is off the mark.

First off, you can't "feed a digital signal direct into a (PC) hard disc drive." You need an interface, of course. If you had a digital mixer you would want a digital interface to the computer, likely with a T/DIF or ADAT interface for multichannel data transfer. The MOTU 896 might be one such interface.

The MOTU digitizes analog signals, but if it also has an ADAT port it might also be a good interface to use with a digital mixer.

Someone that has a MOTU 896 would almost certainly be using it with a mixer of some sort. The outputs of the mixer (analog or digital) would be routed into the MOTU 896 to get them into the PC. In the case of signals from an analog mixer, the signals have gone through the electronics in the mixer before being digitized by the MOTU.

Wherein lives the potential advantage of a digital mixer. The point of the digital mixer is to digitize the input signals almost immediately, right after the preamps. Once the data is digital, theoretically the problem of the accumulation of analog noise throughout the signal path in the mixer is eliminated.

Of course you're really just trading analog noise for round-off errors in all the calculations and manipulations that the digital mixer performs to do its signal routing. But no doubt that's better for the purity of the original signal.

One ding against using a digital mixer is price. So far, you can still get an excellent analog mixer for less than an excellent digital mixer.