Delay important to mixing?

[Robertt8]

How often do you guys use delay when mixing?

The more I screw with it, the more it seems to really help beef up tracks and the stereo image without the obviousness of reverb (of course reverb is always helpful too). I've been tinkering with (for example) panning a guitar track fairly hard one way and having the delay answer softly on the other side. It seems to really help the guitar sit in the track...

Are there any basic settings or delay theories out there?

 

[TexRoadkill]

The basic rule is that any delay shorter than 40ms will not alter your brains perception of it's place in space. In other words if you have a track panned hard left and a delayed signal panned hard right that is less than 40ms your brain will still think the sound is originating from the left side.

If the delay is longer than 40ms your brain will interpret that as a seperate sound source with it's own location or as an echo with a distinct location. It does not affect ambient sounds (reverb) though only direct sound. This is the principle that the early fake surround sound used. They delayed the rear signals by less than 40ms so all the sounds still seemed to originate from the front speakers but there was also a full sound behind you. The ambient sounds from both pairs of speakers would blend together and surround you without sounding like it was coming from any one place.

If you hard pan a sound left with delay on the right and add reverb to both then only the direct sounds will be perceived as coming from the left and right. The ambient reverb on both tracks will blur together and not have any real spacial cues. This is one reason that reverb actually screws up your stereo imaging because your brain doesn't really perceive a location from ambient sound. If you are going for a real stereo feel then use

Use those principles to determine the best way to use delays for a specific effect and also to be conscious of screwing up your panning level balance or stereo imaging.

 

[Light]

I use delay on almost every thing I mix, for a number of different things. First, to give space without the muddle and mush of too much reverb. Second, it is a great way of enhancing the groove, when the delay is in time with the music. Third, well I do not really want to spend that much time writing (I hate straight keyboards, and that is what I have here) so just Google the "Haas effect," and you will learn something cool.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Robertt8]

Thanks guys...

LIGHT: I did a search for the haas effect and got nothing but a variety of brief definitions. I'm not sure if that's what you were referring to or not. Is there something more in depth you could share when you get your split keyboard (maybe just even a link). I think the delay will help a lot instead of using reverb on everything. I'm working on a mix/recording now that seems a lot cleaner without all the reverbs floating around.

TEXROADKILL: Thanks for the info! always helpful and informative!

Any other nuggets of info on delay out there?

 

[Light]

I actually more often think of it as "delay panning."

Your ability to locate sound is based on two things. Volume and time. The pan knob on a console only deals with amplitude, which is the electronic version of volume. Most people get only a very limited sense of direction from amplitude panning. For most people, the pan knob will give you only three to five positions.

Delay panning gives you much more precise, and much wider, control of the position. It works like this. You send the signal to two channels, and pan them hard left and hard right. One gets mixed in as is. The other gets sent to a delay line (no dry signal). The dry signal will be the side which the signal is panned to. The length of the delay will determine how far to the side it is panned. You can actually get the signal appear to be out side the speakers. Even cooler, delay panning can be heard well outside of the "sweet" spot between the speakers. The first time I saw this, I was blown away. It was Very cool.

This works because the most important part of our ability to locate sound is the difference in time between when the sound arrives at our two ears. This is known as the Hass effect.

Hope that helps.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Light]

HERE is another thread with some more info. (or maybe the same information worded differently.)


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Speedy VonTrapp]

This thread is very interesting...

I'm interested in some of the ideas and theories that Tex and Light are bringing up in this thread. Are there any application examples that you can give to help describe the process?

Also, (and this is the most important question I have,) I'm having a bit of difficulty understanding how to separate the sounds in the way you are talking about. That is to say, put the dry signal on one track, and do something specific with it, (i.e. pan left,) while putting the effect on another track and doing something different with that, (i.e. pan right.)

I don't understand how you separate the signals. I think that my mixer can do it, (Behringer UB2104FX-PRO,) but I'm just not sure how to route the effect to it's own track.

I'm running into Cakewalk Pro Audio 9, is it possible to do it inside the software, as opposed to themixer hardware? Or is it better to do it right at the mixer?

Any insight to this would be great.

-Speedy

 

[Robertt8]

Well, as far as I know, there are at least two ways to do this. One would be to use a delay where you can adjust the delay times (usually in milliseconds) independently on left and right sides. So for example I can take my original source track and pan it to one side (lets go with the right side). Then take the delay time of the left side and set that to 40 milliseconds. There are typically lots of other adjustments like decay and feedback...etc that will also effect the sound, but you should hear something that sounds like your original sound on the right side followed by a quick echo on the left. You can do all sorts of variations to this...another way to manually do it would be to take your source track and pan it right. Copy that track and paste it into another track and put a brief space of silence before it so they're offset...then turn down the volume of that track and pan it left. you sould be able to create roughly the same effect, only with one echo, or slapback as it's called.

Does that help?

 

[Robertt8]

By the way...thanks LIGHT!

It looks like quite the argument going on that link to the other post...

 

[Light]

A line level signal (such as that coming out of a recorder) can easily be split with a Y-cable, or a mult in a patch bay, or you could send to the delay from the insert in a channel, or you could use a aux send. Any way you can make it work is good. SSLs and other large format consoles have extensive routing networks that can be used. Whatever. Mic level signals can not really drive two channels, but line level signals can.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Shailat]

Your ability to locate sound is based on two things. Volume and time.

Actually light it's more complicated. Also Volume by itself is reletively uninformative.

Your ability to locate sound is based on distance and arrival angle.

Distance can be broken into
1. Loudness
2. Ratio of direct to the refelcted sound
3. Freq response
4. Time delay

Angle can be broken into:
1. reletive loudness
2. Freq response
3. Time fo arrival difference

I could go into details about each topic but...not tonight...zzzzzzz..zzzzzz

 

[Light]

Actually light it's more complicated. Also Volume by itself is reletively uninformative.

I was simplifying, but if you want to add more to the subject, go for it.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Speedy VonTrapp]

A line level signal (such as that coming out of a recorder) can easily be split with a Y-cable, or a mult in a patch bay, or you could send to the delay from the insert in a channel, or you could use a aux send. Any way you can make it work is good. SSLs and other large format consoles have extensive routing networks that can be used. Whatever. Mic level signals can not really drive two channels, but line level signals can.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

Thanks, Light. I always make a mental bookmark to read anything with your name on it, lately, as you're very knowledgable, and helpful, too.

I think that the biggest problem that I have, (other than just being a big noob,) is that although I've read through a TON of threads on this board, and almost every reference elsewhere on the net that people have pointed me to, I'm still just now learning how to specifically use my new gear. I got some decent practice time in with it last night, and learned a bit more. Unless one of you wants to come over and give me a hands on lesson, I'm pretty sure that using it on a regular basis is the only way to really become aquainted with it, so I'm going to keep on doing that as much as I can.

 

[Light]

Even if someone came over and gave you a "hands on" lesson, actual time spent working on the gear is still the only thing which will help you at all.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[TexRoadkill]

Use of delay for panning fits in with my first post about how your brain interprets the delay under or over 40ms. Using those principles if you want to use delay for panning it needs to be less than 40ms.

For the sake of discussion lets say your original dry signal is panned hard left and you have a 20ms delay to the right. Since your brain hears the delay and still thinks that the sound is originating from the first source even if both channels have the exact same volume the sound will seem to be panned to the left. The higher your raise the volume on the delay track (or shorten the delay time) the more the track will appear to move towards the middle.

The way to get a cool stereo feel without having the sound appear to be panned is to find the right time and volume balance for the delayed track. But that is where you have to be carefull because you delayed track will be a few db's louder than the original and you may end up with some weird issues if you use a stereo compressor on the pair after the delay. Use compression on the mono track before doing any delay panning.

You also have to be carefull how that final volume mismatch affects your overall mix level but usually vocals and drums are the loudest signals so it shouldn't cause too many problems if you do the trick on a lower volume rhythm guitar or something.

 

[Shailat]

As part of the basic question was the use of delay instead of reverb, the option of panning the delay to the same position of the source should be explanied....I'm to lazy to go into details....
I leave it to Tex/Light.