Deciding On PA Equipment

[Confusitron]

Our band has accumulated enough money to invest in a PA system. We are looking to buy a mixer, PA speakers (and power amps), and whatever else is needed. I have some questions in regards to what equipment we should be looking to purchase.

Our band includes (these instruments will all most likely be connected to the PA simultaneously) (two) guitars, (two) keyboards, bass, drum set (five-piece at the moment), auxillary percussion (possibly), and (about five) vocals.

With that many instuments attached the PA simultaneously (if guitar amps are DI'ed and miced, which seems logical to me), it appears we would need at least a twenty-four channel mixer, however, that would leave us with very little slack since we would be using almost every channel. So, probably a twenty-eight or thirty-two channel mixer would be more appropriate. What mixer/brand(s) of mixers do you suggest?

For speakers, I was thinking that two 15" cabs (woofer and horn) at somewhere around 350W would be appropriate. If it is necessary, then I would think that buying two 18" cabs (only woofer) at the same wattage or more would be a proper addition. I am unsure of stage monitors as of right now. What speakers/brand(s) of speakers do you suggest?

I am unsure of power amps. I would think that maybe I should be looking at QSC or Crown power amps for the speakers, but, that and the wattage is really all I know about. What power amp(s)/brand(s) of of power amps do you suggest?

I have many other questions which I may be asking later.

Thank you for any assistance.

 

[boingoman]

First of all, you don't need to mic and DI the guitars. That will save you two channels. Keyboard don't need to be run in stereo, unless you really want to, that could save you a couple more channels. A nice, big stereo mix rarely tranlates to a live situation.

So:
2 guitar
4 keys
7 drums (if you use 2 overheads and mic every drum)
1 bass
1 percussion
5 vox

20 channels, 18 if you run the keys in mono. Moving up to a 32-channel mixer is a big step in $$, no matter what brand you get. It is also big. If you alway play where you have room to set it up, no problem.

Monitors are pretty key, especially for the vocals. Helps people sing in tune, and keeps wear and tear on the vocal cords down.

For speakers, you might want to check out some powered speakers, JBL Eons or the Mackie boxes. Saves on a power amp.

For passive boxes, the choices are unlimited. Depending on budget, JBL MPro boxes sound pretty good. Also the EAW fr series.

Mixers, I'm familiar with Mackie and Behringer, and Spirit on the budget side. Had good luck with all of them. I've heard really good things about the Crest Xrack series.

I like the QSC PLX series for power.

If you get subs, invest in a crossover and another amp to power them. A little more complicated set-up, but worth it.

Budget for some basic FX, a lexicon mpx 110 or 500, or something like that, cables, mic stands, and (probably) a snake. And a graphic EQ. And lots of good A/C cables. And cases for all your new gear.

 

[Confusitron]

First of all, you don't need to mic and DI the guitars. That will save you two channels.

Now, from what I've heard, micing sounds better, however, it is more expensive. So, really, how much of a difference is there between DI'ing and micing?

7 drums (if you use 2 overheads and mic every drum)

What about micing the the bottom of the snare and the hi-hats?

For passive boxes, the choices are unlimited. Depending on budget, JBL MPro boxes sound pretty good. Also the EAW fr series.

What about the JBL JRX series? I think the MPro series is slightly out of my price range, as is anything EAW. What about Peavey? Anyone else have any other suggestions?

I like the QSC PLX series for power.

I have heard good things about the PLX series. A friend of mine uses one of these on his PA.

If you get subs, invest in a crossover and another amp to power them. A little more complicated set-up, but worth it.

Whoops. I forgot to mention that. Those are my intentions. Can you suggest a crossover? Anyone?

Budget for some basic FX, a lexicon mpx 110 or 500, or something like that

What exactly will I be using these processors for? What do they provide me with? I need to do some more research myself, I suppose.

Thank you very much for your response.

 

[boingoman]

Now, from what I've heard, micing sounds better, however, it is more expensive. So, really, how much of a difference is there between DI'ing and micing?

The cost depends on what kind of DI you use. The benefit of the mic is that all else being equal, what comes out of the amp is what comes out of the PA. A DI box misses that crucial last part of the sound equation, the cabinet. I guarantee a couple of SM-57 mics are going to be cheaper than any DI that gives you a decent sound.

What about micing the the bottom of the snare and the hi-hats?

Most likely unecessary. If you use two overheads, position one so it accents the hi-hat. As for the bottom of the snare, I find it uneeded in most live situations. If your drummer hits hard, in many cases you won't be using the snare mic anyway.

What about the JBL JRX series? I think the MPro series is slightly out of my price range, as is anything EAW. What about Peavey? Anyone else have any other suggestions?

Check local Peavey dealers. Peavey just upgraded their SP line, and some places I know are blowing out their old stock of SP-5s. That would be a good upgrade over that JBL series. Those are a retagged version of an old line of theirs. Not bad, not great, mostly marketed to DJs, no matter what JBL says. The boxes were made of MDF, and resonated a lot when pushed. Beyond that, I only know bigger & more expensive boxes(sorry ). I would avoid subs from that JBL line like the plague.

I have heard good things about the PLX series. A friend of mine uses one of these on his PA.

Yup, excellent value. Very light, take much abuse, lots of juice.

What exactly will I be using these processors for? What do they provide me with? I need to do some more research myself, I suppose.

The FX processor will give you access to reverb and delay effects.

As far as a crossover, just about any active crossover capable of two-way stereo operation will do. Just make sure you have level control over both highs and lows. dbx and behringer both make inexpensive and perfectly usable models.

 

[Confusitron]

I guarantee a couple of SM-57 mics are going to be cheaper than any DI that gives you a decent sound.

How do the Electro-voice equivalents compare to an SM-57?

 

[boingoman]

I haven't heard them, but in general I like EV mics. The point really was that you can get a couple of good-sounding mics that will do the job for less than it will cost to get two DIs that even come close to getting the same sound.

 

[deepwater]

Confusitron - check your PM

 

[deepwater]

If your on a tight budget than Wharfedale makes some really nice stuff. If you got money to burn look at Renkus-Heinz.

 

[Confusitron]

From what I've gathered (from here and other places) is that Peavey, JBL, Electro-voice, Wharfedale, and Yamaha are good choices for PA speakers (within my price range).

I have heard that QSC, Crown, and Crest power amps would be a wise investment, although I can't imagine that Yamaha or Peavey amps would be bad.

For mixers, I've heard that Yamaha, Mackie, Behringer (although there are many that disagree), Soundcraft, Allen & Heath, and Crest are good choices (I have forgotten some of them). Most likely many of the Crest and Allen & Heath models are out of my price range. I'm willing to spend a max of around $1000 on a mixer, maybe a bit more (however, this is what I believe is appropriate).

I've got a pretty good idea for mics. I'm not too worried about effects as of right now.

Does anyone have any other suggestions? Can anyone suggest any other specific models?

 

[boingoman]

Sounds like you are doing OK, asking questions, considering the answers. Peavey power amps are fine, given a choice between low-end models I'd go with them or crown. Peavey stuff gets a bad rap but it is all rock-solid and I have a Peavey CS-800 that has lasted longer than the careers of the first two guys that owned it. Never seen any Yamaha power in ten years of doing live sound, except in used racks at music stores, if that tells you anything.

 

[mrface2112]

first of all:

what size gigs are you going to be playing? 50 people? 150? 350? small bars? midsize club?

32 channels? i think you're prolly aiming too big.


cheers,
wade

 

[Confusitron]

first of all:

what size gigs are you going to be playing? 50 people? 150? 350? small bars? midsize club?

I really have no idea... I guess a good question to ask would be, is it a better idea to gig, then record an album, or the opposite? I suppose we could get some attention by gigging, then we would have a reason to record.

 

[mrface2112]

if you have no idea, then there's no real reason you need to be looking at a 32 channel board for live use.

sounds to me like this is a "beginning" band, or at least one that's just starting out, yes? if so, you're gonna be playing small bars and menu-venues (pizza joints that have bands on weekends and such), for maybe 20-50 people.

with that in mind, more than likely you're NOT going to me micing guitar amps, bass amps or drums other than kick (maybe one overhead in a bigger club). drums are always too loud anyway--you'll likely need less of em in those types of places rather than more. same with the guitars. you *might* need more bass, depending on the size of your bassist's rig.

so depending on your vocal needs, you prolly need a 6-8 channel powered head at the most, and I can't imagine you'll need more than 400W per channel/side. get a used peavey, or maybe one of those soundcraft gigracks. get a pair of 15in speakers (instead of 12s so you could DI bass if you want to, and they also handle kick better), and a few monitors. if you shop wisely and aren't afraid of used gear, you should do pretty well.

i know the allure of micing everything up--drums, amps and all, running separate monitor mixes and using a couple outboard amps is a lot nicer than getting a powered mixer......but until you start playing places of 200+ people, you really don't need it. plus, keep in mind you've gotta schlep all that shit night after night. give me "compact" any day when it comes to that--i've already got enough drums to deal with. blech.

get what you want, but keep in mind that more bands break up and offload their practically brand new PA gear at a loss more frequently than john kerry changes his stance on issues.


oh, and do both--record and play live. your recording is worthless without someone to buy it, and gigging's about the only way to get buyers. start out small--4 song cdrs for $3 and such. even with a stomper label, they tend to give you about a $2 profit each. keep in mind this is a small business you are really running......


cheers,
wade

 

[wilkee]

Get a local guy with a small PA etc to work with the band and pay him on a per gig basis.

 

[Confusitron]

if you have no idea, then there's no real reason you need to be looking at a 32 channel board for live use.

Well, I am aware of that now.

sounds to me like this is a "beginning" band, or at least one that's just starting out, yes? if so, you're gonna be playing small bars and menu-venues (pizza joints that have bands on weekends and such), for maybe 20-50 people.

Well, just about all of the musicians involved in the group (I'm probably not going to be a full-time member) are already familiar with a lot of music, have played gigs before, etc. We have began to write some originals.

with that in mind, more than likely you're NOT going to me micing guitar amps, bass amps or drums other than kick (maybe one overhead in a bigger club). drums are always too loud anyway--you'll likely need less of em in those types of places rather than more. same with the guitars. you *might* need more bass, depending on the size of your bassist's rig.

Well, we need to settle our volume issues between the two guitars and bass. The bass amp will most likely need to run through the PA. Typically, everywhere we have played, the drums haven't been audible enough. The toms sound rather weak out in the audience, as does the bass and snare. I wouldn't be micing everything so that it goes through the PA, but to record it. And if we do have intentions of recording, we'd most likely be purchasing some of these things.

so depending on your vocal needs, you prolly need a 6-8 channel powered head at the most, and I can't imagine you'll need more than 400W per channel/side. get a used peavey, or maybe one of those soundcraft gigracks. get a pair of 15in speakers (instead of 12s so you could DI bass if you want to, and they also handle kick better), and a few monitors. if you shop wisely and aren't afraid of used gear, you should do pretty well.

We have already had to deal with this. We aren't a big fan of those systems. This mixer isn't only going to be used for live situations, but for recording too, so it needs to accomodate every instrument (for live recording).

i know the allure of micing everything up--drums, amps and all, running separate monitor mixes and using a couple outboard amps is a lot nicer than getting a powered mixer......but until you start playing places of 200+ people, you really don't need it.

I guess I sort of agree with you...

plus, keep in mind you've gotta schlep all that shit night after night. give me "compact" any day when it comes to that--i've already got enough drums to deal with. blech.

I'm not too worried about that.

get what you want, but keep in mind that more bands break up and offload their practically brand new PA gear at a loss more frequently than john kerry changes his stance on issues.

I think that's a risk we're willing to take.

oh, and do both--record and play live. your recording is worthless without someone to buy it, and gigging's about the only way to get buyers. start out small--4 song cdrs for $3 and such. even with a stomper label, they tend to give you about a $2 profit each. keep in mind this is a small business you are really running......

Sounds like a plan.

Thanks for your advice!

Any more suggestions?

 

[Confusitron]

Get a local guy with a small PA etc to work with the band and pay him on a per gig basis.

Oh, we've already dealt with this sort of thing...except it was friend and we didn't pay him. Wasn't the greatest thing, I'll just say. We don't want it. That is why we are wanting to get our own stuff. There really isn't anyone in this area that can supply us with what we need. That's why I'm on here asking these questions...

 

[Richard Monroe]

Personally, I think you need less channels and more power. You are talking about running a shit load of signals into the board, which is not necessary. For smaller gigs (less than 100 people), it may not be necessary to run the guitars into the board, just crank up an amp. Less feedback problems, less mic stands, less cables. For larger gigs, mic up an amp. You got a lot of vocals, and running that many signals into a small power amp just creates mush. I agree that 18 channels is plenty. You don't have to mic every drum, 6 tracks is fine. But- I believe you need closer to 1000 watts than 350. I use 250 for solo acoustic gigs, and am close to the limit.-Richie

 

[Confusitron]

Personally, I think you need less channels and more power. You are talking about running a shit load of signals into the board, which is not necessary. For smaller gigs (less than 100 people), it may not be necessary to run the guitars into the board, just crank up an amp. Less feedback problems, less mic stands, less cables. For larger gigs, mic up an amp. You got a lot of vocals, and running that many signals into a small power amp just creates mush.

No, no... See, I'm not running everything through the PA, just the board, so that I can record it. On larger gigs I'll put the guitars through the PA. For the most part, bass, keyboards, and vocals would be what is running through PA. Everything would be RECORDED, however. Although, I guess actual recordings as opposed to live recordings are more important in the beginning...

I agree that 18 channels is plenty. You don't have to mic every drum, 6 tracks is fine. But- I believe you need closer to 1000 watts than 350. I use 250 for solo acoustic gigs, and am close to the limit.-Richie

Well, wouldn't 350 watts per speaker be fine?

 

[Richard Monroe]

Again, that depends on the size of the gig. For what you are doing, I'd be using 2 750 watt speaker arrays- Richie

 

[S0C9]

Confusitron,
At the risk of preaching some.......

I think you need to re-think your focus on an FOH board for live recording... First, most live recording (at the pro level) does not come from the FOH board. There's usually a snake splitter feed to the recording board, just as there is to the monitor mix. Why ? 'cus live boards are designed for gigs and not recording.

If you ABSOLUTLY have to have recording from your board, consider a 4 or 8 buss console. You are not going to get a quality recording from a 18 inputs to a 2 channel mix out, not unless your a darn good experienced engineer, and they are few and far between, and live AIN't Memorex. It will be OK, but not up to CD quality. Sure, lay down your click tracks that way, but come back and individually track later !!

Let's take a reality check...
2 guitar - 2 channels max (If needed)
4 keys - again, 2 channels max (you don't need stereo, and no-one tell the difference anyway. It's a nice to have)
7 drums (NOT !! - you can get by with Kick (AKG D112 or Audix D12), Snare/Hat (SM57) and 1 overhead (maybe 2) - so 4 at most
1 bass
1 percussion
5 vox - do you have to have all 5 or is it an ego-thing with the band... We do 4-part in our band, and that's hard enuf to separate... AND... how the heck are you going to provide monitor mixes for all these folks from ONE console ????

OK, that said, that's 15 channels loaded thru the PA. On club gigs, you can probably cut out the 2 guitars...
Now, figure out what your budget is... every one has a limit..

Start with venue size and work back... Clubs ? OK.
Speakers: - Full range (not bi-amped, $5-600 ea)) Yammy S215V, JBL JRX125's or Peavey SP4's.. If you got to have sub's that going to bump the price quite a bit...but Yammy SW115V ($399 ea) - two of each )

AMPS: - for speakers above, Crown CE2000A2 (660w into 4-ohm stereo)- $650, or QSC RMX2450 (750w into 4-ohm stereo)- $590, or Crest CPX2600 (750w into 4-ohm stereo) - $550. TWO - if you Bi-amp as the second will run the subs, and then you need a cross-over too ($200+)!!

Now you're up to:
2 PA speakers (approx. $1200)
1 AMP (approx. $600)
Total: $1800.

If you bi-amp:
2 PA speakers (approx. $1200)
2 Subs speakers (approx. $800)
2 AMP (approx. $1200)
1 Crossover (approx $200)
Total: $3400

And we haven't even talked consoles yet - which you're going to need something like a 24-channel A&H GL2200 ($2000+ USED on Ebay)..

You will save yourself a lot of money if you can get buy with it 16-chan console - you can even get a 4-buss one quite cheaply. There's some good ones out there, but SPEND the money on a good board - an A&H or a Midas... It will be well worth your effort. Do not buy Behringer or Mackie (except the 16's) for live work...

OK. !! So, roughly $4000 so far....
and we haven't even talked monitor mix, monitors, monitor amps, snakes, etc.
See where I'm going ?

This post is long, because I went thru the same exact process 2-months ago. Take a good hard look at what you want to spend, and unload, setup, tweak, tear down and load again every gig !! KEEP IT SIMPLE and NOT TOO HEAVY !!! It get's old in a hurry.....lifting and setting up all that gear every night

Keep your costs manageable. You'll be glad you did. Buy the basics first and add other stuff as you go. Do NOT spend all you have saved.

You'll always need something else - got speaker cables ?? Speakon or 1/4's ??. Do you have a 1/3 Octave Dual EQ ?? You'll need one for the monitor mix, and possibly one for FOH. You may need Compressor(s) for bass, kick, snare and vocals ? How about an Antares ATR1 for vocal pitch correction. What ? You don't need pitch correction ! Your five vocalists sing 5-part harmonies and nail every one, every time. Sure.....Right on... every band should have at least one - set up as a channel insert. Nobody is perfect...

Hopefully this gave you some food for thought
Steve