Decent Mid/Side combination?

ReInventor

ReInventor

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Looking at a few inexpensive mics, both MXL - the R-144 ribbon mic and the V67G condensor. I'd like to be able to utilize mid/side technique, thus the choice of these two. I've heard good things about both, considering the price anyway. Would they compliment each other for a m/s stereo scheme?

Thanks
 
You want an omni with a cardiod for the MS micing...Im not sure what the results are with a figure 8.

I like to use and AT4047 with a Shure KSM44 in omni...its never occured to me to switch it to figure 8 and set it sideways

One thing with the ribbon is if you have a 2 channel pre that supplies phantom to all channels with one button...it will dystroy the ribbon...so be sure and know your preamps specs before you make that purchase.
 
I use a pair of cheap ribbons (figure 8) for mid side with excellent results. I even mounted them together so they're permanently set up for it.

And while you should have channels with switchable phantom power so that you can avoid sending phantom to the ribbons, the situation isn't quite as dire as previously described.

Most modern ribbons aren't damaged by the 48v of phantom power. They don't need it, and it can potentially harm them, so you should avoid it--but I've patched mine into preamps with the phantom on numerous times (I'm a bit sloppy) and there have been no ripples in the time space continuum. (Nor has there been any damage to my mics.)
 
darrin_h2000 said:
You want an omni with a cardiod for the MS micing...Im not sure what the results are with a figure 8.

I like to use and AT4047 with a Shure KSM44 in omni...its never occured to me to switch it to figure 8 and set it sideways

One thing with the ribbon is if you have a 2 channel pre that supplies phantom to all channels with one button...it will dystroy the ribbon...so be sure and know your preamps specs before you make that purchase.
Click to expand...

MS Micing has to have a figure 8. You can use anything type for the "Mid" (most of the time people use a cardioid), but the "Side" HAS to be figure 8. Also, some ribbon mics (active ribbons) need phantom power. Check the specs on the ribbon mic you buy to be sure, but Darrin is right about passive ribbons POSSIBLY frying with phantom power.

One more thing to keep in mind is that some ribbon mics won't work well for M/S micing. Anything with an "offset ribbon" like a Royer will give different results. The ribbon moving inside the mic is what creates the electric impulse that mics translate to sound. The offset ribbon isn't aligned directly in the middle of the magnet like in a normal mic, thus creating different responses on either side of the mic.
 
darrin_h2000 said:
You want an omni with a cardiod for the MS micing...Im not sure what the results are with a figure 8.
Click to expand...

Huh? Mid-side always uses a figure-8 for the side. Using an omni for the side won't get you any stereo separation at all because the signal coming from the back side isn't opposite in phase relative to the signal coming from the front side.

You could use an omni for the mid or possibly a figure-8 for the mid (modified Blumlein), but you cannot use an omni for the side.
 
Given that they're different types and different brands, you'd probably be setting yourself up for disappointment. But you won't really know until you use them and either like or loothe the results.

A lot of more modern ribbons are wired to not fry with +48V. But that doesn't mean that it's a good ideal to use it, even though it doesn't need it. If it doesn't advertise immunity, I wouldn't risk it.

AFAIK, MS recording has always had fig. 8 for the side. Not to say that you can't get roughly equal results the other way. But is it really MS?

I'd be more apt to use a mic that is a dedicated MS mic. Shure VP88. Assuming that you even want MS to start with.

http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/WiredMicrophones/us_pro_VP88_content
 
darrin_h2000 said:
Ive been putting off any ribbon purchase based on the chance of dystroying one...Id be interested on which ones are OK with phantom power applied.
Click to expand...

If you don't have channels where you can turn off the phantom, I still wouldn't get ribbon mics. My point wasn't that you can use them with the phantom on--my point was that I've accidentally let them hit phantom without any damage. I still wouldn't use them with phantom applied constantly.
 
Ive had my eyes on some older ones...but I really dont need one that bad anyhow.

Im halfway guessing that the figure 8 has to be turned sideways for this...I may have been doing a different vocal mic technique but it was called MS in the tutorials.
 
One other thing...in case you don't know....

Besides getting your mics sorted out, you also need an M/S matrix that will encode/decode the M/S signals.

You can rig that up yourself on an analog console, while some DAWs have an M/S matrix built in...or in my case, I use a standalone preamp that has an M/S matrix built-in.

Here's some info on M/S recording.

http://emusician.com/mag/emusic_front_center/
 
It's actually really simple to decode in a DAW I recently discovered. I was looking for a matrix plugin but found instead that you can just record the figure 8 to two tracks (or copy and paste later), flip the phase of one track, pan hard left and right, cardioid up the middle, and send all three to a stereo bus. Nice and simple.

Thanks everyone, by the way. Those microphones...?
 
I also am very interested in knowing what combinations of (relatively inexpensive) microphones would work together in a M/S configuration.

Any suggestions?
 
darrin_h2000 said:
Im halfway guessing that the figure 8 has to be turned sideways for this.
Click to expand...

Correct.

The cardioid pattern fills in the null from the side of the figure-8 mic. The figure-8 mic is in phase for stuff coming from one side and out of phase for stuff coming from the other side.

In decoding it, you add the side (figure-8) to the mid (cardioid) for one channel and subtract it for the other channel.

Stuff coming in from straight in front of the pair comes in on the cardioid (mid) mic and doesn't significantly appear in the signal from the side mic at all. It ends up in the center because L=M+S and R=M-S, so both have a signal from the cardioid mid mic.

For sound coming in from the positive side of the figure-8, the left side gets M+S, so the volume of the sound is increased on the left. The right side gets M-S, so the sound is decreased on the right.

For sound coming in from the negative side of the figure-8, the left side gets M+S, and since the sound, as reproduced by the mid mic, has negative (inverted) polarity, the sound is diminished (adding a negative is like subtracting a positive). Likewise, because the right side gets M-S, the sound on the right side is increased (subtracting a negative is like adding a positive).

So it fundamentally depends on the sound from one side being out of phase with the sound from the other side, which only occurs on a figure-8 capsule (and, I think, on a hypercardioid capsule, but not evenly enough to be useful).

Thumbs up on the VP88, BTW. That's a sweet mic.
 
ReInventor said:
Looking at a few inexpensive mics, both MXL - the R-144 ribbon mic and the V67G condensor. I'd like to be able to utilize mid/side technique, thus the choice of these two. I've heard good things about both, considering the price anyway. Would they compliment each other for a m/s stereo scheme?

Thanks
Click to expand...

I just did an audio demo of the MXL R144. I was pretty pleased with the results.
see this thread for more info.
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=290810&highlight=MXL+Ribbon+Mic
 
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