Dealing with stubborn musicians

F

FromtheSOUTH

New member
We've all been there.

Now, I'm a musician myself, but I consider myself to be open minded, I can take criticism and enjoy trying new things.

But, certain members of my band (I won't use names, but there are only 2 of them;)) are just the most stubborn, set-in-their way jockstraps I know.

For example, we were attempting to track a song the other day, just me and the drummer, and I suggested that he plays this particular song with a closed hi-hat instead of open. (Live, the open hat is fine, but recorded it was just plain annoying and loud, and the rest of the kit was lacking because of it)

Well, I just get a death stare and an earful - "You're not the drummer, you're the bass player, I don't write your parts, yadda yadda..."

We argued for a while, I suggested that we record a separate open hat track at low levels, and a couple other reasonable compromises, but I finally gave up.

This is just one example of many.... and don't get me wrong, I love these dudes. We're practically married, and maybe that's part of the problem... But how do you guys deal with this?
 
Someone in the band needs to take on the role of the producer/engineer....and that should be someone who understands the differences between playing live VS recording in a studio.
That member should not be a production NAZI...but, members who don't understand recording subtleties/needs should agree to defer to him when there are stalemates about what to do.

If you have too much democracy...."art by vote".... in a creative environment, it's not always a good thing.
Someone has to lead the vision of the production. The whole band can/should discuss the overal, general vision before it is put into play, but little differences of opinon should not turn into battles, and that's where the "producer" has to make the call.

To make it really fair and if everyone wants to be equally involved...each member can take his turn being the producer on a given song, and the guy who can engineer the best, should simply act as the engineer for each of the producers in turn.
 
Are you all taking joint credit for the song writing? IMO, the person who crafts the original idea/lyrics/chords should get the writing credit and thus have control over some of the things played by others. The lead guitarist who adds a lead part in the middle or end of the song does not get writing credit, neither does the drummer. If you want to give everyone credit on the album/copyright, that's fine, but let the true 'writer' have the say.

Or if the drummer keeps giving you issues, mute his tracks and use EZ Drummer or Superior Drummer!
 
I agree wholeheartedly.

The problem is, when I try to advance our cause, I'm met with a total lack of cooperation- No one is willing to compromise, on anything.
Its frustrating. My drummer has the drive that I have, the desire to make quality recordings, so for now, that'll do. The guitar player thinks it's a waste of time, so I'm lucky if I can get him to record a thing- let alone get him to put new strings on his guitar and let me fiddle with his knobs and mic placement for an hour. (when he mics his amp, he just turns the mic on, puts it in front of his amp, any old place, and then yells at me when I move it... please just shoot me....)

As for letting the other two 'produce', I'm thinking that will get us nowhere even faster. I guess the real problem is that neither of the two will let me take control, it's like they think all of the reading, vid-watching, and trial and error I've gone through to become a BETTER engineer actually makes me a WORSE engineer. I mean, come on. We've got more than enough gear, 3 pretty decent musicians, and LOTS OF TIME. What's missing? Knowledge, experience (I'm working on it) and COOPERATION!

grrrrrrrrrrrr:cursing:
 
mjbphotos said:
Are you all taking joint credit for the song writing? IMO, the person who crafts the original idea/lyrics/chords should get the writing credit and thus have control over some of the things played by others. The lead guitarist who adds a lead part in the middle or end of the song does not get writing credit, neither does the drummer. If you want to give everyone credit on the album/copyright, that's fine, but let the true 'writer' have the say.

Or if the drummer keeps giving you issues, mute his tracks and use EZ Drummer or Superior Drummer!
Click to expand...

It's funny, when we're writing, no matter who came up with this riff, or that riff, even if one person has a whole song written out, we always respect each others opinions, come to compromises until it's an arrangement we're all happy with. Then, when I press the record button, the fighting ensues.

I was actually thinking of recording a couple songs all by myself- I can drum and strum a bit too, in addition to slappin da bass. That'd really piss em off, more than EZ drummer would.
 
Well...I would then move on and find others to record with...or do it all by yourself if you can.

Endless stubbornness and arguing within a band makes no one the winner with anything.
Have a straight-up talk with them if you are that eager to record, and they're not, or if they are just making it a difficult process.
Maybe they think you're trying to take control...?...or maybe they feel inferior for not knowing as much as you about recording, so they become stubborn rather than acknowledge your direction...?

A little drama in a band may even be a good thing....but if ZERO progress is being made, then it's time to move on.
 
FromtheSOUTH said:
just me and the drummer, and I suggested that he plays this particular song with a closed hi-hat instead of open. (Live, the open hat is fine, but recorded it was just plain annoying and loud, and the rest of the kit was lacking because of it)

Well, I just get a death stare and an earful - "You're not the drummer, you're the bass player, I don't write your parts, yadda yadda..."

. But how do you guys deal with this?
Click to expand...

I purchased EZ Drummer.
 
DavidK said:
I purchased EZ Drummer.
Click to expand...

:D

So did I...and SD too! :cool:

It's not that my drummer was a problem...he just became too hard to schedule to come over and cut tracks, since he's playing in a few different scenarios, and I'm only doing my studio thing. Otherwise, he always took my direction without question...and I always would let him pretty much play what he felt....so when something needed attention, we would reach a compromise very quickly.
We still track together when the time is found...but now I can also do tracks without waiting on him...and he can always come over and re-track later if desired.
 
OK, I'm bored so I'm just playing Devil's Advocate. I don't disagree or agree with you because I'm not there to see who's doing what.

But is it possible that they think the same thing about you? Could this be a case of all 3 people thinking "I'm a reasonable person, but I can't disagree with this guy without him thinking I'm just trying to start a fight, when all I'm trying to do is get the best possible result for the good of the band". Or even "I don't want to argue, but I've been playing it live like this forever and now he wants to change MY part which always worked. I'd never do that to him".

I'm just throwing that out there, anything's possible....

On a musical note, are you sure the open hi-hat part that worked live really doesn't work recorded? Could it be that it just sounds over-powering in a studio context before the song is mixed, but might actually sound great once everyone else is recorded and mixed?

Again, just throwing that out there.....
 
I don't think it's time to move on over something like this. It's difficult to find several people who can gel together as a musical band. If musically, you guys are getting along, then you should try to find a way to make it work in other aspects of the band as well. I hear ya when you feel the others won't put any effort into making it work. It's definitely like a marriage and you don't want to walk away from a marriage so quickly. What about the kids?? :eek:

Let him be the drummer, record him as he wants and if it doesn't sound good. Sample over top of him, then show him the results and see if that changes his approach. Give them a reason to trust your instincts.

Or... call in someone else to record you. Maybe spend some time tracking at a studio with a pro engineer then taking the tracks home and mix them yourself. You can even use the excuse that you want a good sounding room to record the drums in, then use the engineer to convince the drummer to play the part both ways and experiment.
 
All I can say is GOOD LUCK.
Sometimes it can be a real challenge being married to 4 or 5 other people at the same time and trying to make it work. It definitely takes allot of compromise and patience especially when dealing with musicians and their egos but it takes a bit of ego to be able to get up on the stage and really knock it out of the park so it's really a double edge sword.
Have been doing this band thing for 40 years or so and find if one person is designated the director and coordinator (usually me) and not necessarily the dictator things can go allot smoother.It also helps if allot of the songs are your originals and you know the way you would like to hear them but it's also good to give some free reign to the other members and see what happens....you may be surprised.
When working up a new piece, it's nice to record all the different ideas on the spot and play them back to see if you can get a general consensus on what sounds best for the whole group.
I find as I get older this whole thing is allot easier because of my willingness to compromise and the patience and wisdom I've acquired over the years in dealing with people.
Just remember.....If you don't feel it, don't play it and if it's not fun, don't do it.
Music should be all about having fun and not a chore.
Good Luck
 
I like to think of the lines in the movie "That Thing You Do" when in the bar scene, "Guy" says to "Del" that his band's only been together for a month, and "Del" tells him that for some bands, that's a month too long....and that you just need to move on and keep playing.

I've seen some potentially good bands get destroyed by the talented "prima donna", or the great player who never shows up for anything...etc..etc.

You have to weigh out what value you are getting out of the situation VS what crap you are dealing with in order to get that value, or in your case, not even getting it, and having to slog through endless disputes over every little decision.

Yeah...you guys need to really talk things out in advance, rather than trying to work them out during recording sessions...

...and then do what you have to do.
 
The problem is that you are not dealing with professionals. Professionals work to make the song and the recording great, no matter what. This ego stupidity doesn't happen.

Record it as is and let the drummer hear the hats washing out the mix and screwing up the groove.

Record the guitar sounding like crap, if the guitarist thinks it sounds great, he's an idiot and you might as well find another one. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting half a dozen guitar players...

If they aren't cooperative, then they aren't interested in creating anything on a professional level. If your goal is to create something on a professional level, you need to find some guys that have the same goal you do.
 
Unfortunately at my level I always end up being the producer as well as the recording engineer. When I come across something like this I tend to have them come in and listen. I tell them what I am hearing that I am concerned about. I then ask them to try it another way just for the sake of trying it. Then we compare and they usually end up siding with me. Not because I'm right, but because I have the benefit of listening instead of playing the part. I just ran into this over the weekend with a guitarist. I suggested he turn the gain down so I could hear the notes better. He did and like it better.
I would suggest playing your drummers parts back to him, then try it your way. Then u can compare and decide as a group what works best. Good Luck
 
Farview said:
The problem is that you are not dealing with professionals. Professionals work to make the song and the recording great, no matter what. This ego stupidity doesn't happen
Click to expand...

:thumbs up: I've been both very lucky and very unlucky with some of the stuff i've done. The band i'm currently in consists of the singer/songwriter/guitarist/keyboardist and works at a medium sized studio in the midlands. he is also a phenomenal drummer (better than i am, and i'm the drummer in this!). We also have a guitarist who is an exceptional and versatile player who builds boutique distortion pedals for part of his living. Finally our bass player, who despite only picking up the bass at the start of this project, is naturally quite gifted. We are all singer/songwriters in our own right, and myself, the singer and the guitarist all studied music together at uni. When it came to record or first EP, i was half expecting a situation as the OP had laid out; arguments, disagreements, the works. Out of all of us, it fell to me to record and mix the project because it was deemed that i had the most experience. However, when we started, i was amazed at how willing and understanding all the members were when i suggested things, moved mics, or twiddled knobs on amps for hours on end. it ended up being a thoroughly fun process and, with hindsight, i can see that a couple of factors really went in to making it work;

1) One person was in control; not a "recording nazi" but when it came to it, i had the final say
2) The other band members understood the recording process; no one grumbled when i suggested moving mics or spending hours to get the best possible take for a part
3) We all worked in the interest of the songs; i've always found it hard to really know how a song sounds until you hear it recorded, and we quickly found issues with the songs that could easily be remedied by either changing the arrangement or what each player was actually playing
4) we all respected one another and could communicate effectively

I've also been at the other end where i've been paid to record and found myself constantly fighting with guitarists who don't know how to set the intonation on their guitar, use far too much distortion, drummers who smash the crap outta the cymbals but stroke the snare like it's their gran on her death bed, singers who won't warm up and wonder why they sound so crap etc etc etc.
 
FromtheSOUTH said:
I agree wholeheartedly.

The problem is, when I try to advance our cause, I'm met with a total lack of cooperation- No one is willing to compromise, on anything.
Its frustrating. My drummer has the drive that I have, the desire to make quality recordings, so for now, that'll do. The guitar player thinks it's a waste of time, so I'm lucky if I can get him to record a thing- let alone get him to put new strings on his guitar and let me fiddle with his knobs and mic placement for an hour. (when he mics his amp, he just turns the mic on, puts it in front of his amp, any old place, and then yells at me when I move it... please just shoot me....)

As for letting the other two 'produce', I'm thinking that will get us nowhere even faster. I guess the real problem is that neither of the two will let me take control, it's like they think all of the reading, vid-watching, and trial and error I've gone through to become a BETTER engineer actually makes me a WORSE engineer. I mean, come on. We've got more than enough gear, 3 pretty decent musicians, and LOTS OF TIME. What's missing? Knowledge, experience (I'm working on it) and COOPERATION!

grrrrrrrrrrrr:cursing:
Click to expand...
look ... you're NOT gonna change anyone or get them to change ........ trust me ..... 49 years in the biz now as a live player and 45 years full time and I've played with far more bands than most because I've always been primarily a hired gun.
So I've played with a lot of guys and all you're ever gonna do by trying to change these guys is to make things tense.

Right off the bat the guitar player wouldn't be playing in a band with me unless he's the one paying me ....... I hate that kinda shit.
The drumber ....... well he's right, you're not the drummer. It's a valid point and you can certainly use that the next time he does try to tell you what to play. But the getting mad thing is pretty prickish. A good musician is usually open to suggestions and yours being unwilling to allow you even to suggest something without him getting an attitude is kinda amateurish to me.

Having said all that ...... you have to decide if what they bring to the table is worth putting up with the things you don't like, because that's how they're gonna be ..... you're simply not gonna change them.
If they bring enough that you don't want to kick 'em, then you may as well expect them to behave that way and plan for it ...... try to find ways to manipulate them into doing what you want OR ..... just accept it and don't worry about it.

I believe that every player comes with pros and cons ...... and the ultimate decision essentially is:"DO the things they do that I like, whether enjoying their company or their playing or their vintage amp collection, do those things outweigh the things I don't like?

Because, just to get it out there one more time ..... you ain't getting them to change in any significant way.
:)
 
Farview said:
The problem is that you are not dealing with professionals. Professionals work to make the song and the recording great, no matter what. This ego stupidity doesn't happen.

Record it as is and let the drummer hear the hats washing out the mix and screwing up the groove.

Record the guitar sounding like crap, if the guitarist thinks it sounds great, he's an idiot and you might as well find another one. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting half a dozen guitar players...

If they aren't cooperative, then they aren't interested in creating anything on a professional level. If your goal is to create something on a professional level, you need to find some guys that have the same goal you do.
Click to expand...

^^^^^^ same thing I said but far more concise ^^^^^^
 
Thanks for all the input, guys. Everyone had valid points, and it all got me thinking...
In retrospect, I really just needed to vent. Like I said, these dudes are my best friends, I love them as people and musicians (hope they never see this lol) and I'm definitely NOT going to move on... But, I have decided to start a couple side projects. This will give me more opportunity to record how I want to, hopefully get them a little jealous because it sounds so good (doubtful) and also get some space between us for a while... I also work everyday with my drummer, so we spend way too much time together, probably part of the problem.

I guess another problem is that we never put anyone in charge of anything but their instruments. So now that I've taken over the engineer role, I'm constantly changing things, trying to figure out what's best for the sound of the band. People don't like change. Especially stubborn people. I guess what really needs to happen is a band meeting, talk about roles and how we are going work together from now on. Hopefully the guitarist is feeling open minded.
 
I remember talking to a guy from a band that was gigging the same circuit as my band years ago. He told me that they run their band like a "Democracy" (his words). So, one of the things they did was change leaders every 3 months. I don't know if they had actual elections, but they gave everyone in the band a chance to be in charge at some point.

Sounded good on paper, but I don't know how well it actually worked.
 
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