DAW hardware & software thoughts, questions - reality check!

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Lavely

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I'm going to build a DAW to do some simple (!) recording of solo guitar, either through an interface or using a mic on an amp, I want to create virtual drum tracks using software, I may lay a vocal track, may use a keyboard eventually.

I am going to build the DAW - does a new build need any special cooling? Looks like most CPUs come with some sort of heatsink or fan that goes on top of them. Also, the power supply will have a fan on it already, right? Anything else I should do to keep it cool, or will it be fine on its own? I'm looking at a Q6600 quad core and a ASUS P5N-D motherboard.

Any suggestions for dropping the quad core down to a dual core, and a motherboard that will go along with that switch? I don't really need quad core power...

I am wondering can I scrounge a power supply and the case from an old Dell? Or, does this create issues with a new build fitting in there? Never built a PC before...though, I have tinkered & added parts in the past.

If I install Windows XP, is Pro or the Home edition preferred for ease of use?

For a videocard, sounds like a low-end $25 card like the EVGA 7200 GS will do just fine. Any other opinions on this?

I am using a Line 6 UX2 to get my guitar signal into the PC. Do I need a soundcard at all if this is my interface (via USB 2.0)? Can't I simply plug my speakers into the UX2 and avoid a soundcard altogether?

With the Line 6 UX2, I'm hoping to use Reaper recording SW and Addictive Drums. Anyone have issues with compatibility of these three pieces of HW/SW?

Thanks in advance!!

Lavely
 
IMO... it's a mistake to scrimp on the power supply... besides the fact that depending on the age the old one may not have the right connectors for some newer boards...
 
dementedchord said:
IMO... it's a mistake to scrimp on the power supply... besides the fact that depending on the age the old one may not have the right connectors for some newer boards...
Click to expand...

+1

I wouldn't reuse a dell case either. As long as you're not throwing the case in some cramped up area the fan on the PSU along with the board heatsink and normal case fans you'll be fine with keeping it cool. It also doesn't sound like you'll be loading up tons and tons of tracks.

Have you looked at other CPU's? I love the power you can get from a E8400 and it'll be plenty and then some for what you want.

OS I prefer XP, and I'm currently on Pro, but Home is really about the same. Haven't heard anything really good or seen anything good from Vista yet and don't think I ever will. I'd stay clear of vista especially on a DAW. That's just personal preference though.
 
Ok, no go on reusing the old Dell junk - new power supply and case are now in the budget.

buckkillr8 - From my ignorant point of view, downgrading from the quad-core Q6600 to the dual-core E8500 for a savings of $20 doesn't seem to make sense. I'm sure I'm missing something - help me understand!

Lavely
 
I don't know a whole lot about sound cards, but computers...there's a different matter.

Don't downgrade to the dual core. Buy the Quad and just run it stock. You will have plenty of power, and if you don't over clock it like us gamers do, you can get by with a very quiet HS/fan combo. If you feel the stock HS/fan is too loud once you get it, you can purchase an after market one for around $50 that is nearly silent...the key here is to get one with a LARGE fan that runs really slow...pushes the same amount of air as a small fan running really fast (and loud).

Another thing to keep your rig silent but cool is to buy one of the newer motherboards with high copper content and solid core caps on the components - this cuts the temp, and no fan is needed on the North/South bridge chipsets if they have a decently large heatsink.

Look at the layout of your case carefuly...purchase one ideally with the power supply at the bottom rear, with the power supply fan sucking in air from the bottom and staight out the back. Have a fan at the bottom front sucking air in, over your hard drives (you are going to have 2 SATAII HDD in RAID, correct?). Install the drives with one blank space in the middle for air flow all the way around them.
Then you need an exhaust fan at the top rear sucking out; a fan in the side of the case near where the CPU will be is optional, but not a bad idea either. If you get one there, make it blow inward, over the CPU. These work good, especially if your case has vents in the top.

Do you game or anything? If you want a really silent DAW rig, there are a few OK (ie not steller but decent) integrated video motherboards now...this will save you a HOT, power sucking, full size graphics card with its own (sometimes loud) fan...but may not give you the 3D performance you'd like to see...trade off always.

Beside the boost in speed, using SATA HDDs and even a SATA DVD/CD drive help because the thin cables will not block the airflow as much as the larger IDE type cables.
One more thing on the power supply, try to get one that is 80 Plus certified (stable) and has a 120mm fan at around 17db - they consider this "silent" and although you can still hear it, it's about as good as it gets. Just as an example for price, I think the Coolermaster Real Power Pro 650w that I purchased at Frys awhile back was like $60...

Hope that helps some, pleaes let me know if I can help with any other ideas.
Jed
 
Lavely said:
Ok, no go on reusing the old Dell junk - new power supply and case are now in the budget.

buckkillr8 - From my ignorant point of view, downgrading from the quad-core Q6600 to the dual-core E8500 for a savings of $20 doesn't seem to make sense. I'm sure I'm missing something - help me understand!

Lavely
Click to expand...

I only referred to this because I thought in your original post you were thinking about going to Duo. :o Nevermind :D
 
Jedman said:
Don't downgrade to the dual core. Buy the Quad and just run it stock. You will have plenty of power, and if you don't over clock it like us gamers do, you can get by with a very quiet HS/fan combo. If you feel the stock HS/fan is too loud once you get it, you can purchase an after market one for around $50 that is nearly silent...the key here is to get one with a LARGE fan that runs really slow...pushes the same amount of air as a small fan running really fast (and loud).
Click to expand...

I'm not really a gamer, but I've been running my Q6600 at 3ghz for the last year and haven't even noticed its been overclocked :) Get a nice fan and it'll run at the same temps as the stock clock with the boxed HSF. I recommend the big Noctua HSF things.

On the other hand, the e8500 is fast - very comparable to the Q6600. The implementation of the quad-core-ness in the Q6600 is very primitive (two dual-core dies shoved into one CPU)... there are all kinds of bottlenecks to do with communications between the cores and things I don't pretend to understand, and add to that the fact that most programs (even if they claim to utilise multiple cores) still aren't truly optimised for it, you come to the conclusion that a good dual-core may be better.
 
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I would downsize to a duo-core if it meant cost savings, but it would have to be at least $100 cheaper for the whole system, or it doesn't seem worth it. I'm open to someone telling me I'm wrong...

Jedman - regarding video cards, I don't game now, and I think I want to keep the card separate from the mobo in case I upgrade one or the other in the future.

Another thought...what would the downside be to simply buying this setup, which seems to check most of the boxes in my build desires for the same price I would pay for parts:

Can' post the URL as I don't have 5 posts yet, but there is a system on New Egg (Item # N82E16883227121) that is $500 and has all of what I want except a different mobo. Would the Intel G31 mobo be an OK replacement for the ASUS P5N-D I had spec'd out? Or, would it be possible for me to sell the G31 on Ebay & buy a P5N-D to replace it? Seems like it is all there & ready to go for $500...

Help!

Lavely
Lavely
 
I think it would be a waste and would rather want the Asus to begin with.
 
Lavely,
We can be of more help with a little more knowledge. Is there a specific reason you chose the Asus board to begin with? Price, components, recommended by friend, etc.? Also, same question for the Q6600? Honestly, that bare-bones rig packs a lot of power for $500. You've got to just be amazed at the cheapness of computing power these days! But you're going to have trade-offs with all hardware, unless you fork out bucks for the top of the line gear...so can't really say which is better for you until I know why you wanted the certain piece of hardware to begin with.
(I know it's a bit rambly but hope that made sense.)

Also, in answer to Mattr, by all means, not like he can't O/C this rig - it just seemed like there were a lot of variables at first. I mean, if you're just goofing around on a computer, then who cares; if it crashes, just reboot and surf or game some more. But if you've got a lot invested in a song and it crashes, there's going to be some cursing involved. I know first hand after losing some photos that should have been backed up (but weren't) and it's not fun.
If you're going to O/C and you want stability as well, then you need a good case with adequate air flow, and a powerful PSU, not to mention sometimes getting lucky with a CPU that can handle more juice. It's a combo of planning your purchase, luck, and skill, especially w/ memory timings, etc. But to each their own. Some like the challenge, and some say why bother? :-)

All the best,
Jed
 
Jed - I sincerely appreciate your help! In response to this:

"We can be of more help with a little more knowledge. Is there a specific reason you chose the Asus board to begin with? Price, components, recommended by friend, etc.? Also, same question for the Q6600? Honestly, that bare-bones rig packs a lot of power for $500. You've got to just be amazed at the cheapness of computing power these days! But you're going to have trade-offs with all hardware, unless you fork out bucks for the top of the line gear...so can't really say which is better for you until I know why you wanted the certain piece of hardware to begin with."

I picked the Q6600/Asus board recommendation out of another thread titled "HELP!! with DAW build". I am WIDE open to other suggestions. I went with this combo because the posters seemed knowledgeable and this combo is not expensive, but it also seems very powerful, based on my limited knowledge.

I will be doing fairly basic stuff to start, and, if all goes well, might graduate to intermediate at the highest level in a few years. I won't be a pro at any time!!

I will not be overclocking - no real need with this much power available relatively cheaply.

I would love to save $100 or $200, but it would not be worth it to me to hamstring a system to do so.

Also, can anyone confirm I do not need a sound card with the Line 6 UX2?

Lavely
 
I'm going to build a DAW to do some simple (!) recording of solo guitar, either through an interface or using a mic on an amp, I want to create virtual drum tracks using software, I may lay a vocal track, may use a keyboard eventually.

I am going to build the DAW - does a new build need any special cooling? Looks like most CPUs come with some sort of heatsink or fan that goes on top of them. Also, the power supply will have a fan on it already, right? Anything else I should do to keep it cool, or will it be fine on its own? I'm looking at a Q6600 quad core and a ASUS P5N-D motherboard.

Any suggestions for dropping the quad core down to a dual core, and a motherboard that will go along with that switch? I don't really need quad core power...

You don't need dual-core power. Hell... you don't need CELERON power but you can't step any lower. There are tons of people recording on Pentium 2 and Pentium 3 PCs.

I am wondering can I scrounge a power supply and the case from an old Dell? Or, does this create issues with a new build fitting in there? Never built a PC before...though, I have tinkered & added parts in the past.

Don't do this. Dell supposedly uses non-standard power supplies and... frankly... power supplies are cheap.

If I install Windows XP, is Pro or the Home edition preferred for ease of use?

For your needs and skill level it's most likely six of one, a half dozen of the other, though purely for philosophical reasons I support XP Pro.

For a videocard, sounds like a low-end $25 card like the EVGA 7200 GS will do just fine. Any other opinions on this?

Many mobos... notably MicroATX boards... have VGA built into the motherboard. You can find mobos (with video) for about $50.

I am using a Line 6 UX2 to get my guitar signal into the PC. Do I need a soundcard at all if this is my interface (via USB 2.0)? Can't I simply plug my speakers into the UX2 and avoid a soundcard altogether?

My knee-jerk response is 'yes', but in truth I don't know. Most interfaces are A/D/A (analog in, and analog out) but there is always SOMEONE who gets cute...

With the Line 6 UX2, I'm hoping to use Reaper recording SW and Addictive Drums. Anyone have issues with compatibility of these three pieces of HW/SW?

No idea.
 
Hi Lavely,
I see the situation a little more clearly, then. You just want to build a DAW on a budget, want it to be good for this purpose (not necessarily for gaming or other purposes), and don't really have your heart set on any strict components yet. In that case I have a few cost saving ideas...

But first to answer your most significant question: Do you need a seperate sound card if you have the Line 6 UX2? No. You do not. I've never used it, but I went to their website and checked it out for you. The whole purpose of the UX2 is that it IS the audio interface, and will be your input and output all in one unit.
Now, can you just plug in your speakers into the UX2? Yes...but how you do it will obviously depend on what speaker setup you have. It has a headphone out with level control, so you can use a nice set of headphones to monitor (or small multimedia speakers through this, but that's not recommended.) Or, if you have monitors or other nice speakers with a seperate amp, you can go straight from the line-out of the UX2 to the amp (or powered monitors)...will probably be a decent setup.

Now for the DAW workstation components. Like was just mentioned...man, if you are on a budget, don't buy into all the marketing hype. Up to a certain point, you would be better off putting money elsewhere than into the computer itself if need be.
What I would suggest is something a little different - but from personal experience I know this works.
Why not look at it like this: Get something that will grow with you? And please don't use the old Dell pieces - that will do nothing but add frustration at some point when you want to upgrade! :-)

Power Supply - RAIDMAX HYBRID 2 RX-630SS 630W ($70)
Case - up to your personal preference here - COOLER MASTER Elite 330 ($40)
MOBO - open box MSI DKA790GX ($85) or ASUS ASUS M3A78-T ($92)
CPU - AMD Athlon64X2 ($70)
RAM - G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 ($50)
2 HDDs - Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 ST3500320AS 500GB 7200 RPM SATA ($65 x 2 = $130)
DVD/CD Drive - LG 22X DVD±R DVD Burner Black SATA ($23)
OS - XP professional OR Vista 64bit - the choice is yours. I'd be very tempted to stick with XP Pro for now, and get the next version of Windows in a year when you drop in a quad core CPU.

Now...you're going to want reasons; this was much different than you had in mind. :-)
PSU - that will take pretty much anything you can throw at it.
Case - totally up to you, I happen to like CoolerMaster's screwless version for ease...good airflow.
MOBO - These motherboards are the latest chipset for AMD, and will support the PhenomII when out - see below - and they include a very good onboard video chip (better than the stand alone card you were thinking of buying.) DirectX 10 support, and if you ever want better video in the future, you can disable the onboard video in 2 secs in bios, and they have multiple Pcie x16 slots for cross fire, etc - just in case. :-)
CPU - really, this will save you $120 over the quad core for now. To be honest, you probably won't miss it for at least a year. The PhenomII CPU is due out in a week - it will be second generation and fix a few "issues" with current quad cores...it will literally be able to just drop in and go with the above mobos. Very nice upgrade later on, when you need it, and most importantly - when prices come down!
RAM - you want 1066 for later when you go quad core, it's not really any more expensive than 800, and this particular ram is a good value with good CAS timings. Don't go slower than CAS 5 if you pick different ram.
HDDs - these are fast. 32mb cache on the barracudas and run them in a RAID 0 setup - you will have no lag.
DVD drive - well, they're honestly all pretty good at this point - LG SATA is a good value.

Not bad for $475. I'm not sure you could ask for a faster rig for that price - this is not hype based on "flashy specs" but a system that would meet your current needs on a budget and grow with you over time. For example, you could double the RAM later, drop in a quad core, add any video card you wish later, has both PCI and PCIe slots for sound modules, etc...
And if you need it cheaper - you could get a different PSU - and shave $20 or so off.
Hope that helps, please let me know if you have other computer related questions or just want to bounce an idea off someone.
Best of luck,
Jed
 
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Jedman said:
Also, in answer to Mattr, by all means, not like he can't O/C this rig - it just seemed like there were a lot of variables at first. I mean, if you're just goofing around on a computer, then who cares; if it crashes, just reboot and surf or game some more. But if you've got a lot invested in a song and it crashes, there's going to be some cursing involved. I know first hand after losing some photos that should have been backed up (but weren't) and it's not fun.
Click to expand...
Ahh, I made it sound like I 'just did it' :). I actually based the whole build around the fact I would be running it slightly above stock, including things down to buying RAM so it would run 1:1 with the FSB. In the end all I had to do config-wise was push the FSB up to 333mhz (1333), and the Asus BIOS automatically tweaks the voltages, timings, etc, all for you. I have never had a system crash in the year since I built it. Well I had one BSOD but that was a dodgy Logitech driver :(

But even if you're not going to overclock, ***don't skimp on the PSU***. I've read in many sources that this is one of the top causes for system instability and crashes, yet it is commonly overlooked. For hard drives I seriously recommend the Samsung Spinpoint F1. I've just added 2x 500gb ones to my PC and they're much much faster than the 500gb Western Digital drives I had already.

Seriously though, it doesn't sound like you're going to be pushing this rig with any major multitracking. I would go with what Jedman suggested and then you've always got the option of an easy upgrade at a later date if you decide you need the power.


I experienced this over 10 years ago when our computer (running a trusty Cyrix 333 chip :) ... hmmm, I would've been around 5 at the time) started crashing regularly which at first we thought was being caused by dodgy RAM, but it turned out it was the power supply and everything sorted itself out when that was changed. Similar thing happened a few years later with an AMD K6-2+ (although about a month after fixing that it decided to spontaneously burn itself out :rolleyes:).
 
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Jedman said:
Power Supply - RAIDMAX HYBRID 2 RX-630SS 630W ($70)
Click to expand...

630w?

How about 450-500w. What a waste of money. This isn't a gaming machine, and even those are generally touting monster power supplies they'll never need. Its about a quality supply, not how much.
 
Two questions:

1 - Will I have any compatibility issues with software or other hardware if I go with an AMD CPU instead of Intel?

2 - What does the upgrade path look like in a year or two? Let's say in 2 years I want more power. Will this mobo allow me to simply plug in a new CPU and significantly increase my power? Or, will other items also need to be replaced? Curious, as I have never upgraded a CPU before, and this is the most appealing part of a self-build to me. If I can spend $200 or so in 2 years to upgrade the CPU, then $400 or so in 4 years to upgrade CPU & mobo & maybe some other parts, and keep on that cycle almost indefinitely, and maintain strong processing power, I'm going to ALL self-built boxes in my house!! Seems a lot smarter than buying an $800 Dell every 4 years.

Lavely
 
Lavely said:
2 - What does the upgrade path look like in a year or two? Let's say in 2 years I want more power. Will this mobo allow me to simply plug in a new CPU and significantly increase my power? Or, will other items also need to be replaced? Curious, as I have never upgraded a CPU before, and this is the most appealing part of a self-build to me. If I can spend $200 or so in 2 years to upgrade the CPU, then $400 or so in 4 years to upgrade CPU & mobo & maybe some other parts, and keep on that cycle almost indefinitely, and maintain strong processing power, I'm going to ALL self-built boxes in my house!! Seems a lot smarter than buying an $800 Dell every 4 years.

Lavely
Click to expand...

If the socket chipset was the same you could but you might need to reconfigure hardware/and or software. Once you get real old though you'll just wanna upgrade the whole system as when time goes by everything kinda of adapts with everything else. So sooner or later that old case isn't gonna cut it anymore, and you'll be searching for one of those to keep up with better cooling options and space.
 
Not trying to get in a war here - everyone has their opinions. Like I said, he can get what ever power supply (psu) he wants. However, should he EVER want to upgrade to bigger video cards, especially a crossfireX setup, etc- I mean, what if his tastes change and he wants to game a little or anything - why would you want to hamstring your future options to shave $20 off the PSU? It is not necessarily a waste if there is a reason behind it. But yeah, he doesn't have to get that model - that's a fairly beefy PSU, although far from "high end expensieve" $200 ones.
EDIT: Here's a lower cost PSU option: Rosewill RG430-2 430W 80Plus Certified ($50). Again, up to you, but this would be as low as I would go on PSU...it's more than watts. Its AMPS that matter, and in a DAW, you want a nicer PSU with a 120mm "silent" fan, not a cheaper one with a smaller (louder) 80mm fan.

Lavely - Yes and no to your questions. :-)
I would say if you do it right, the rig will withstand one upgrade cycle very easily. It depends on a lot of things - timing, when you buy the components, etc. (Sure, you can upgrade anything any time, but sometimes it just doesn't make sense, and as the last poster pointed out, if you wait too long, stuff become incompatible. What I did here was lay out a very reasonably cost system that has very good upgrade potential. If you're into that, I would purchase everything with that in mind.)
That's why I think you'd be really better off going with a fast dual core 64X2 CPU right now...then a year or two later, you can drop $200 on the fastest PhenomII chip around and just go pop it in. These Mobos will support that. The RAM will support that. Heck, this PSU and case will support it, etc.

You can go the Intel route - but you will not be able to upgrade w/out changing the mobo and RAM later w/ the CPU. More money in the long run for sure. Not that it's a bad option, but it's up to you - I have both AMD (the exact CPU I'm recommending you and it is fast) and Intel (dual Xeon processors in my server) and they are fast too...it's all in what you want to spend, and for what application.
Also, there are no compatibility issues these days - that is hold over stuff from a long time ago. In fact, Intel even uses some of AMD's 64bit code now, just like AMD licenses stuff from Intel - very much compatible these days.

Hope that answered some questions, and please keep them coming. I know for me, it's not an easy thing to plunk down hard cash (what limited we all have of it!) on stuff you're not sure about.

Sincerely,
Jed
 
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OK, this is a nice dollar value system that I like for today's use and the upgrade path looks nice as well. Let's get it nailed down!

I like the lower $ power supply for $ reasons. I will need to find a copy of XP Home as well - I bet we have one at work I can use somehow.

1 - Do I need to be concerned at all about the "open box" nature of the ASUS mobo listed?

2 - For the CPU, when I look up "AMD Athlon64X2" on NewEgg, I get almost a hundred responses. Can you post a specific link?

I LOVE the idea of creating a system that will allow a CPU upgrade in a year or two for a couple hundred $!!

Lavely
 
Hi Lavely,
First off - email me - jedtsmith@hotmail.com - and send me your address. I will mail you a copy of XP Home that came with a laptop I bought my wife if you'd like. It will be a copied CD (because I will keep the original Dell CD) but the serial # is yours to use forever if you want. We won't ever use it so...(currently using XP Pro and Server 2003 on all my rigs.)

I'm glad you like the setup we speced out - if you get these component, you won't be dissapointed for the low cash outlay. Especially w/ the PhenomII CPU upgrade path whenever you desire later down the road.

Open box from Newegg is as good as new - I've purchased at least 4 mobos that were open box from them over the years and never had a problem. Same warranty, return priveleges, etc. It's a good way to get a good board for cheap. :-)
If I had to pick, I would get the ASUS board - but to be honest, any board w/ the 790GX/750 SB combo is going to be pretty good and give you nice upgrade path. And the onboard video is pretty nice - especially considering you're getting it "almost free" and you can add any graphics card you wish later if you want to game, etc. You were asking about a regular soundcard earlier - quite frankly, for general listening/gaming the onboard sound on this ASUS mobo is actually not too bad, so you get that "cheap" as well. :-)

Link for MOBO: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131331R

Link for CPU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103272

Like I mentioned earlier - make sure you get this RAM DDR2 1066 CAS 5 - because even though it's slight overkill for the X2 cpu, you will want it when you drop the PhenomII in later. Everything is being purchased w/ upgrade in mind - that's just how you have to do it. LINK for RAM:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231166

Cheaper PSU (but still 80+ certified) LINK:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182159

DVD Burner: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827136152

Case: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119115

HDD (get 2 for RAID):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148288
Or, if you don't want to do RAID, then get something like this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152102

One quick note w/ loading XP on a RAID system - you will need a floppy drive to load the RAID driver for the motherboard. It can be a floppy out of the old Dell if it has one, or you can get one from Newegg for literally $5. If the Dell has one, just use that - not worth buying a new one just to load a driver.

Let me know if you have any other questions. Of course, feel free to swap out any components you would rather have - but this is a general list.
Sincerely,
Jed
 
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