DAV BG1 too loud?

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slotter

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Hi all,
new to the forum.
I'm using a DAV BG1 into a Edirol UA-101 onto cubase.
I read that to get a good level out the BG1 you have to have the green light lit most the time but avoid the red one. Thta's ok, no problem, but then everything I record onto cubase it hitting top all the time.

Anyone else had this problem with the BG1.. is it even a problem? Maybe I should just lower the gain on the preamp and that's that? Thing is then you can't see what level you are at cus there's only 2 monitering led's (-3db and over)

thanks
dave :)
 
slotter said:
Hi all,
new to the forum.
I'm using a DAV BG1 into a Edirol UA-101 onto cubase.
I read that to get a good level out the BG1 you have to have the green light lit most the time but avoid the red one. Thta's ok, no problem, but then everything I record onto cubase it hitting top all the time.

Anyone else had this problem with the BG1.. is it even a problem? Maybe I should just lower the gain on the preamp and that's that? Thing is then you can't see what level you are at cus there's only 2 monitering led's (-3db and over)
Click to expand...

Don't worry about the green light, red light thing. Pay attention to the levels you're getting in Cubase. You should be recording at line level, which on most converters equates to -18dBFS RMS or so. Obviously stuff with hard, fast transients (like drums) will peak higher...-6dBFS maybe.

Frank
 
We use A-designs' ATTY with our BG-1 for the same reason.
 
if you're not clipping in cuebase you are fine

if you are clipping then you need to 'turn down' something

search on various forums for 'gain staging' threads

One initial thing to check is that if you are plugging the DAV into the inputs on the back of the Edirol make sure those are set to match the DAV's nominal output, +4. If the the inputs you use are set to -10 (dBu) you might run into trouble

good luck
 
thanks guys
seems the BG1 is a bit of a beast!
the inputs are set to +4db, so no worries there

looks like im gonna have to turn down the BG1 a bit when recording

:)
 
hey supercreep
just checked the ATTY, looks like a good investment actually... found one on ebay for 80 dollas, that seem like a fair price?

:)
 
Thanks alot guys
Phaku: couldn't find much info on the NHTpro (the links you gave me didnt work)

so, I've decided to go for an ATTY, read some good stuff about them and it would be great to be able to use more of the BG1's headroom without freakin out the A/D converters on the Edirol.

Thanks again
d :)
 
slotter said:
so, I've decided to go for an ATTY, read some good stuff about them and it would be great to be able to use more of the BG1's headroom without freakin out the A/D converters on the Edirol.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but threads like this make no sense to me. The goal of headroom is to have it, not to purposely use it up. What is so difficult about turning down the pre? There are only a couple of situations where that is the wrong answer:

- the preamp is designed to saturate or generate pleasing distortion at very high levels. I don't think that's the case with the BG1; I thought it was designed as a clean preamp.

- you need a certain level of gain to maximize signal-to-noise ratio. For most preamps, that's about 20dB.

Otherwise, this seems like an exercise in spending money to get the LEDs to light up on the preamp.
 
mshilarious said:
I'm sorry, but threads like this make no sense to me. The goal of headroom is to have it, not to purposely use it up. What is so difficult about turning down the pre? There are only a couple of situations where that is the wrong answer:

- the preamp is designed to saturate or generate pleasing distortion at very high levels. I don't think that's the case with the BG1; I thought it was designed as a clean preamp.

- you need a certain level of gain to maximize signal-to-noise ratio. For most preamps, that's about 20dB.

Otherwise, this seems like an exercise in spending money to get the LEDs to light up on the preamp.
Click to expand...


On overheads, the BG-1 can clip the converters on my 896HD at extremely low volume settings.
 
Last edited:
Supercreep said:
On overheads, the BG-1 can clip the converters on my 896HD at extremely low volume settings.
Click to expand...

How? With its pad in, the BG-1 has minimum gain of 0dB. Take a hot condenser, say -30dBV/Pa. If your overheads are 124dBSPL (that's awfully freaking loud for overheads), then your mic's output is 0dBV, plus 0dB gain is 0dBV. How does that clip a +4dBu converter? Heck, it probably wouldn't clip a -10dBV converter!
 
mshilarious said:
Otherwise, this seems like an exercise in spending money to get the LEDs to light up on the preamp.
Click to expand...
+100.. I'm with you there... just turn it down... if you have issues with noise or thin audio, then try padding... Put your wallet away and use your ears
 
slotter said:
Thanks alot guys
Phaku: couldn't find much info on the NHTpro (the links you gave me didnt work)

so, I've decided to go for an ATTY, read some good stuff about them and it would be great to be able to use more of the BG1's headroom without freakin out the A/D converters on the Edirol.

Thanks again
d :)
Click to expand...

You could just make a pair of fixed pads with three resistors per channel for an unbalanced line or five resistors per channel for a balanced line. That's cheap and easy.

For example, I have a bank of fixed pads built into an old patch bay that I used when mixing the +4 balanced outputs of a 1" 8 track into a Mackie mixer. That let me track at proper levels and not overload the mixer.

Cheers,

Otto
 
if you're not clipping in cuebase you are fine
Click to expand...
I'm not even going to go there...

The problem is how the converters in the 101 are calibrated. I'd bet a small amount that they're bouncing around -12dBFS instead of the -20dBFS where they should be.

Looking at the specs of that unit, there seems to be some interesting number-fudging going on... And it doesn't even mention where line level falls on the scale - which worries the hell out of me.

And a rather hilarious paragraph which I'll share with the class:
The UA-101 allows you more freedom in setting your recording levels with the built-in limiter. Prevent clipping in your recordings. Get high-quality studio recordings with a wide dynamic range. No more worry about clipping a live recording or losing valuable signal because of brief loud transients.
Click to expand...
Yep, that's the way to get a "high quality studio recording with a wide dynamic range" -- Set your levels WAAAAAAAYYYYY too hot and let a limiter catch the transients.

Anyone who doesn't take "brief loud transients" into consideration long before hitting the "RECORD" button deserves whatever clipping he gets.

ANYWAY -- See if there's a way to calibrate the converters to a reasonable level (-20dBFS is a personal favorite, but that's only because most adjustable converters stop there. I'd use -24dBFS for tracking if it were an option). If there isn't, then just back it down.
 
MOFO Pro said:
+100.. I'm with you there... just turn it down... if you have issues with noise or thin audio, then try padding... Put your wallet away and use your ears
Click to expand...

MS and MOFO...great posts. I'm not sure I understand the point of a line attenuation device in this case. Why not just turn the preamp down?

Frank
 
hey guys
thanks for all the replies
I'm a bit of a newbie when it comes to digital recording and mic pre's..
I always thought that to get the best sound and singal to noise out of a preamp is to have it as loud as possible without clipping.. but the BG1 clips the UA-101 really easily. When playing or singing with dynamics, this is very hard to control... Or I record really quiet to leave room for the louder parts, or I get clipping. I know someone's going to mention a compressor now, but I don't like using compressors if I can help it.. at least not at the tracking stage.

I have also read whilst researching the ATTY that using a line attenuator can allow you to pump the preamp a little more and get a fatter sound out of the mic.. it just seems to give me more options when tracking.

I will play around some more without one.. but i am seriously considering getting one for my set up.

once again, thanks loads for the responses. Very helpfull and imformative.
Cgeers
d :)
 
ooh massive master

thanks for replying.. but I have no idea where to start in terms of calibrating the convertors in the UA-101... totally lost me on that one!

:)
 
slotter said:
I have also read whilst researching the ATTY that using a line attenuator can allow you to pump the preamp a little more and get a fatter sound out of the mic.. it just seems to give me more options when tracking.
Click to expand...

That depends on what happens to the preamp when you crank the levels. The BG-1 has a stated ginourmous amount of headroom. So the mostly likely thing that would happen would be nothing other than heating the resistors in the ATTY a bit.

Where people like to crank pres is with stuff that has multiple tube stages or an output transformer--those are devices that will distort in a pleasing manner.

I don't think the BG-1 is designed to distort at all. Even at the +18dBu level that lights its red LED, it still has 11dB of headroom. So the difference in distortion with that box between green LED and an actual nominal level of +4dBu is probably slim to none.

That's a dangerous rule to learn, because a lot of cheaper gear isn't designed as robustly as the BG-1. When you push it up to +18dBu as a nominal level, the results are not likely to be euphonic.

I really think DAV should have set the level of the green LED to +4dBu, then there would be no threads like this. The green would indicate nominal level, and the red a fairly close clipping indicator for most +4dBu converters, still with 11dB of analog headroom. Difference in the audio performance of the unit with the LED triggered at a different level? None. Think about that.

Learn to walk before you run . . . if you need band-aids to manage basic gain staging, that is a sign you might not be ready to jump into pushing gear beyond its limits . . .

I could write a long technical post about gain staging and noise performance, but you probably already thought this post was long and technical, so . . . just trust me that noise is not likely to be an issue if you are worried about clipping a converter.
 
msHilarious
I appreciate you replies and will take them into consideration. You are probably right.. but seeing that other people use the ATTY for this puropse made me think it could help me. Seems it may be a waste of money for me right now... I need to do more research into the subject and your responses are a lot of help.

1 thing I'd like to point out though, with all respect, is that you seem almost angry that I'm asking these questions.

"I'm sorry, but threads like this make no sense to me. The goal of headroom is to have it, not to purposely use it up. What is so difficult about turning down the pre?.."

The point in a thread like this is so someone can learn something valuable from people who know. There is nothing "difficult" about turning down the preamp, it was just a question, a quest for more knowledge on this particular subject.

"...if you need band-aids to manage basic gain staging..."

I'm a proffesional Guitarist/singer and have worked with many international artists and have released many albums on labels across the world.. I get asked alot of advice about guitar techniques and never have I considered anyone who doesn't know in need of "band aids."

I really apreciate your responses, truly...but you kinda leave a guy feeling a bit stupid when there's no need.. you obviously know a lot about recording and you should be proud to share you're knowledge without leaving someone feeling bad for not knowing. Everyone has their specialities and everyone can learn from someone else.. no need to feel bad about that.

Anyway... thanks again for taking the time. I'm gonna play more with the BG1 without the ATTY and see what happens... see if I can finally take off these band aids!!

:)
 
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