DATA ERRORS!!!

[sonusman]

I have been seeing all this stuff about uploading submitted songs to ftp sites and what not.

Here is the reality.

If you are uploading a .wav file, it would be safe to assume that at 16 bit, 44.1KHz sampling rate that the data will be 10MB per minute of stereo music. Now, let's say that the shortest of the songs are 3 minutes long. That is a 30MB file!!! Kind of big and will take a long time to upload.

Now, I don't know about you guys, but I always check my data, or for the most part I do when I care about it, after it has been transferred. Like when I am backing up my .wav files on this current mix I am doing. BEFORE I ERASE THE FILE OFF OF THE HARD DRIVE, I FIRST LOAD THE FILE FROM THE BACKUP DISK AND PLAY IT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE BACKUP DISK IS NOT MESSED UP!!! This is obvious the prudent thing to do because if the backup disk is messed up, well, if I still have the original file on the hard drive, I can just burn another disk. Then, when I am satisfied that the data can be transferred back to the hard drive with out any clitch's, I can delete it from the hard drive and move on knowing that I have a reliable back up file on disk.

So, you have spent the whole night uploading you 30+MB file to a ftp site. It took all night to do. HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT IT TRANSFERRED WELL?!?!?!?!? Well, you can check it out by downloading it back to your hard drive. But then, you don't really know if the download was good because the errors that may be there could have happened while downloading. You would never know unless you downloaded it again. But then, you still wouldn't know for sure if the uploaded file was correct in the case that the downloaded file is corrupt. You have just spent 3 whole nights uploading and downloading, and you still don't know if the damn file is good or not unless when you downloaded it all was well.

BOY, WHAT A HASSLE!!!

Now, let's continue this to the logical conclusion.

Let's say that it is a good upload (but you can never be sure untill you have a successfull download of it yourself right?). What is to say that the person downloading it for eventual burning gets errors while downloading. He wouldn't know if the file is corrupt upon upload, or from his download. The only way to check would be to download it again. But, if there are errors, he still wouldn't know for sure because he could still be having download problems. What a hassle.

Next, the artist submitting doesn't really know if his submission was uploaded or downloaded with no errors. Nobody knows untill the damn thing gets to me and I discover one way or another that it is good or bad. In the case of it being bad, the artist would need to submit another copy of the file for mastering. What a hassle.

So why even bother with the upload/download thing at all?

Why not have people submit on CD-R or Zip disks? That way, the artist could assure that the file at least left him in good shape. It also alleviates all the time spent with transfers online. Even with a DSL connection, we are talking hours and hours of downloading for the few that will be downloading. Also, quite a bit of time for the person to upload, even with DSL.

Also, with all the submissions on one or two disks that came from the person who did all the downloading and burning, they would be on only one or two disks total. If that disk was to get messed up at all on my end, most of it would be gone.

But with seperate submissions on CD-R, the chances of many songs getting messed up is signigicantly lower.

It would seem that most everyone who is submitting has a CD burner on their computer, or a stand alone unit. How many cases is this not true?

At some point, they had to have gotten it on computer for upload right? So, even in the event that they don't have a CD burner a stand alone unit could be rented, or the person could just get with the year 2000 and buy a damn CD burner like most of the rest of us..... Really though.

So, these are just my thoughts.

I know that I would never trust my submission to go though a phone line two different times and expect that it is trouble free. Also, who knows what will happen to it when it gets burned by whoever is burning it to CD-R. No offence at all is intended concerning the skills of the eventual people who will be doing this. But, they can only assure that the disk they burned is good by loading all those songs back on their hard drive and listening to them all to verify that the burn was good.

Oh, I forgot to mention that if anyone was wanting to submit a 24 bit, 48 KHz file, that goes at about 18MB per minute of stereo music. Almost double the 16/44 file. Wow!!! Now a 3 minute tune is like 74MB!!! A big job even for a DSL connection.

I would prefer submission's to be at the highest possible sample rate and longest bit depth. This way, when song volumes have to be changed to matched other tunes (I am guessing that all still want me to "normalize" the CD, although I would never use such a crude process on music) it can be done in a 24 bit file, and then dithered down to 16 for the master. If any of you think that mastering in 16 bit is fine, well, you are wrong. There are way too many things I could go into that support the theory that you try to keep the highest possible sample rate and bit depth untill right before you burn the master.

So, just some stuff to chew on here.

My thought is why not just submit it directly.

Ed

 

[drstawl]

Ed- I can't argue with any of your logic regarding the whole net transfer thing, but if someone with a slow connection is persistent and involved enough to do some QA on the process then those with a cable connect doing the download don't have hours involved. 30MB from a fast ftp server will arrive in 2 minutes.
They shouldn't be responsible for QA of the original file anyway. They should just verify that their burned copy matches what they got through ftp. A hassle indeed, but they volunteered: you know how that goes. Did you notice the felt marker dot just below the brand name on the CDR I sent you? I use that
mark to denote a 100% tested CDR.

My MAIN point is that this whole net transfer protocol complete with volunteers was erected to provide access to those that couldn't do it any other way.

You shouldn't have to worry about it as everything you'll receive will be as you requested on CDR or Zip.

 

[Slackmaster2K]

Heh.

There is obiously a lack of understanding here about file transfers.

The chance of any error slipping through is *extremely small*. In fact, it is much more likely that you will experience errors burning a CD. (BTW, if you're making a CD to send to Ed, just transfer the WAVE, don't burn an audio disk) And Zip drives puke like puking is going out of style (worthless plastic pieces of shit). In all my years of downloading, never has a file been corrupted during a download. That is, a file has never come down that appeared to be perfectly fine but was in fact corrupted during the data transfer.

All file transfer protocols that I am aware of including FTP and HTTP use the TCP protocol (is that redundant . TCP is a "guaranteed" delivery protocol which can handle missing and misordered packets. Plus, a checksum is run on each packet. Don't worry, your files aren't just shot out onto the net in a slipshod "let's hope we get there" fashion.

I agree that uploading large files can be difficult...but not that difficult. Plus I would recommend uploading directly to one of our FTP sites. That way there is no "downloading" required since both Ammeth and Jim will be compiling and burning the information submitted to them.

BTW, I fall in to the category of NOT having a CDR...though I do have access to them at work meaning I COULD steal one for an evening I suppose.

Anyway, like I said...burn data CD's instead of audio CD's when sending stuff to Ed. There will much less cause (if any) for concern. Verify the file with the software that came with your burner, or just LISTEN to the wave directly from the CD.

Slackmaster 2000

 

[ametth]

any songs that are uploaded to me will not be burned blindly to disc. I planned on checking each one anyway to make sure there were no errors with the transfers. anyway, ftp is very reliable ed.

slack, did you ever get the upload program working?


ametth

 

[sonusman]

Okey dokey, suit yourselves..... I believe you are all placing a lot of trust in this process, but, we will see what we see when it is all done.

Ed

 

[Brad]

uh, I have a stand alone burner and my recording set up is not computer based. I can only make an audio CD. What do I do?

 

[Slackmaster2K]

You CAN make audio CD's if you need to. But then you have a burning and a "ripping" process on your song. Probably not the biggest deal in the world though.

Slackmaster 2000

 

[sonusman]

No ripping here!!!

Digital I/O on the soundcard, and, a DAT and CD Player with digital I/O.

Your stuff will get to my computer just fine from your CD.

But, I still would prefer all submission to be in the highest bit length and sampling rate possible.

I CAN convert 16 bit 44.1 sampling rate file to 24bit 48 for the purpose of mastering then dither back down. While this is not as good of a way to go, it is better than trying to master a 16 44.1 file. It will be as good or better than the original.


Ed