HangDawg
bUnGhOlIo
northsiderap said:
For cymbals??? Yuk. I'd rather record the shitty drummer without.
For cymbals??? Yuk. I'd rather record the shitty drummer without.
C
Cloneboy Studio
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I've had to deal with a ton of young, silly drummers that bash the cymbals to no end. Not one of them ever played softer when requested to do so. Just record it clean with ample headroom, throw Sound Replacer on the kick, snare, and toms, and drag the overheads down to a level where it sorta sounds like they had some control.
Yeah, that sucks but it's the only solution I've found that works. Heck, listen to most of the CD's these kids listen to--it's the same nonsense.
One thing that drives me insane are the washy ride cymbals they beat on, or just beating on cymbals in general. Just tons of wash with very little rhythmic information.
Sigh. Young people.
Yeah, that sucks but it's the only solution I've found that works. Heck, listen to most of the CD's these kids listen to--it's the same nonsense.
One thing that drives me insane are the washy ride cymbals they beat on, or just beating on cymbals in general. Just tons of wash with very little rhythmic information.
Sigh. Young people.
giraffe
i love negative rep
Cloneboy Studio said:
i happen to know that danni doesn't have sound replacer.
nor triggers.
K
Kronpox
New member
HangDawg said:
Maybe using triggers on the rest of the kit, yes?
giraffe
i love negative rep
just to repost some of the good ideas i've read here
mic toms from under (maybe even a little inside if he has no bottom heads)
kik inside, blanket over shell.
you're probably screwed on that hole snare thing, but i'd even try letting the snare mic rest lightly on the head. i've done this, sometimes it sounds good and the closer to the snare, probably the better.
back the overs off, maybe put them in front of the kit instead of over it?
mic toms from under (maybe even a little inside if he has no bottom heads)
kik inside, blanket over shell.
you're probably screwed on that hole snare thing, but i'd even try letting the snare mic rest lightly on the head. i've done this, sometimes it sounds good and the closer to the snare, probably the better.
back the overs off, maybe put them in front of the kit instead of over it?
C
Cloneboy Studio
.
Having a sample replacement tool for drums is not just a nice option, but a necessity in today's music. It will pay for itself a thousand times over. I'm amazed at the number of small time people that don't use them, whereas the pro's use them ALL THE TIME.
Get something, be it Sound Replacer, Drumagog or what not.
Get something, be it Sound Replacer, Drumagog or what not.
M
mrface2112
Well-known member
Cloneboy Studio said:
unfortunately, you're spot on. it's the same with autotune and singers. why play the part with good skill or technique when you can have someone else fix it for you after the fact?
*sigh* young people
cheers,
wade
L
Lance135
New member
I'm glad that I'm not the only one who has this problem! Despite many articles from top drummers that advise that drummers hit the drums hard, and the cymbals soft, they won't or can't do it. Even the drummer in my band, who is a good drummer, has this problem. I play the track back for him and show him how much better the cymbals sound when they're hit softer by comparing the sound of different cymbal hits within a song.
I find it not as much a matter of balance because I mike all the drums individually, but the cymbal sound itself to be a problem. The hard hits tend to be a bit "splashy sounding", while the softer hits were much more pleasant, smooth, with a hint of stick noise. Different cymbals yield quite different results, too. The thinner, studio-oriented cymbals sound really good when hit softly, but really bad and kind of distorted when smacked, while the thicker, road-worthy cymbals seem a bit more tolerant of hard hits. They aren't nearly as nice, though.
I wonder if playing back a track for the drummer and pointing out the problems and the potential to make the track sound much better would help. I thought it was a good suggestion to do two tracks, one with all the drums but no cymbals, and a cymbal-only track.
I find it not as much a matter of balance because I mike all the drums individually, but the cymbal sound itself to be a problem. The hard hits tend to be a bit "splashy sounding", while the softer hits were much more pleasant, smooth, with a hint of stick noise. Different cymbals yield quite different results, too. The thinner, studio-oriented cymbals sound really good when hit softly, but really bad and kind of distorted when smacked, while the thicker, road-worthy cymbals seem a bit more tolerant of hard hits. They aren't nearly as nice, though.
I wonder if playing back a track for the drummer and pointing out the problems and the potential to make the track sound much better would help. I thought it was a good suggestion to do two tracks, one with all the drums but no cymbals, and a cymbal-only track.
M
metalj
New member
I liked the idea of going to a bigger room with higher treated ceilings and wall if possible, but your still fighting the overall mix of the kit and bleed into the tom and snare mics, but the bigger room would help you get further away. youd have to spend some time figuring out placement so the cymbols sound good, but not too loud.
Ford Van
Banned
The bane of a small room is lots of phase cancellation in low frequencies. That, combined with proximity make for cymbals that are often way too loud in small rooms!
High frequencies tend to dissapate MUCH faster than lower frequencies, and low frequencies can actually distrupt high frequencies. This, the big room is going to mellow out much of that harsh sound on drum overheads that you hear in small rooms, as well as allow the low frequencies to resonate much better because you don't have phase cancellation!
Big rooms are the ticket!
High frequencies tend to dissapate MUCH faster than lower frequencies, and low frequencies can actually distrupt high frequencies. This, the big room is going to mellow out much of that harsh sound on drum overheads that you hear in small rooms, as well as allow the low frequencies to resonate much better because you don't have phase cancellation!
Big rooms are the ticket!
noisewreck
New member
Dude, you're only 34!Cloneboy Studio said:
C
Cloneboy Studio
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noisewreck said:Dude, you're only 34!
Yeah, but when I work with kids (16-25) they make me feel old because of the wisdom they lack.
R
reverieman
New member
I just recently went through this myself, with my own drummer. We tried to actually man his cymbals while he recorded (to quicken the decay), EQing, taping, and recording seperatley. Finally I told him that if he didn't learn to hit his cymbals with finesse that I was going to turn his overheads off in the final mix... I have never seen him so gentle. In fact the lighter he hits the cymbals the better they sound. The reason this works, (and why it worked for John Bonham) is the lighter a drummer hits his cymbals the more you can turn up the overheads without the cymbals overpowering everything. This gives the drums more definition, tone, and presence. So tell him soft... soft... soft....
S
slimvillan
New member
I agree with all the above and sympathise your plight. I was a semi/pro drummer for nearly 20 years and in my time played pretty much everything from swing, ub40 pop covers, metal and big band jazz and I can say without hesitation there's no need to hit cymbals so hard it interferes with your work. My advise is this...most people, (when taken to one side, so's to avoid all the ego and pants that goes with being in a studio) respond well to a few well chosen words. Tell him he'll never sound like a rock while he hits cymbals as if his life depends on it. If that doesn't work ask if it's a d**k thing 
Hope this helps
SlimVillan, drummer to the stars ( if you count the blue Ox Babes)
Hope this helps
SlimVillan, drummer to the stars ( if you count the blue Ox Babes)
H
Han
New member
Cloneboy Studio said:
I prefer recording with decent drummers, besides that, I record on two inch tape and get great drum sounds with a couple of decent microphones.
Sound replacer..... replace the drummer fercryingoutloud!
Sigh, young people.
C
chessrock
Banned
I don't understand what's so tough about moving the freakin' mics down lower, and point 'em away from the cymbals and at the toms.
It's not that hard. Move mics away from cymbal.
Sigh, stupid people.
(Just kiddin' guys)
It's not that hard. Move mics away from cymbal.
Sigh, stupid people.
(Just kiddin' guys)
F
Freis968
New member
Get another drummer.
Chris Shaeffer
Peavey ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Assuming the drummer isn't going to change (the technique or the person)...
You already have all the advice you need, I think. I can only repeat:
- Close mic everything else.
- Hell, forget room mics and try close micing the cymbals, too. That's usually a mess when it comes to mixing, but it least it *might* give you some control. The can always recreate room(ish) sound by "reamping" a more appropriate mix or using a reverb.
- Try moving the snare mic to the bottom if you only have one- and try to get as much separation from the hats with it as you can- but ideal mic the top and bottom. Trust me- you will sorely miss the bottom mic if you end up having to turn the overheads down or don't have them.
Have fun... don't forget to have fun. You can only get it the best you can get it. If that's not good enough for the band just explain everything you've tried and apologize that there is simply no way to make the drummers technique sound better. You're out of options except for the drummer to play differently- which is up to him and not you.
If the band is happy with what they're getting... swallow you're perfectionism and get on with it. It doesn't matter if it's not as good as you like if the what's making it sound bad is beyond your control- and the band is OK with it.
Take care,
Chris
You already have all the advice you need, I think. I can only repeat:
- Close mic everything else.
- Hell, forget room mics and try close micing the cymbals, too. That's usually a mess when it comes to mixing, but it least it *might* give you some control. The can always recreate room(ish) sound by "reamping" a more appropriate mix or using a reverb.
- Try moving the snare mic to the bottom if you only have one- and try to get as much separation from the hats with it as you can- but ideal mic the top and bottom. Trust me- you will sorely miss the bottom mic if you end up having to turn the overheads down or don't have them.
Have fun... don't forget to have fun. You can only get it the best you can get it. If that's not good enough for the band just explain everything you've tried and apologize that there is simply no way to make the drummers technique sound better. You're out of options except for the drummer to play differently- which is up to him and not you.
If the band is happy with what they're getting... swallow you're perfectionism and get on with it. It doesn't matter if it's not as good as you like if the what's making it sound bad is beyond your control- and the band is OK with it.
Take care,
Chris
D
Dani Pace
New member
Thanks to everyone who responded. I feel a little better knowing that I am not the only one who has to deal with this. I've stopped beating my head on the wall in frustration. I had this drummer read your responses (some of you hurt his feelings but thats OK, he needed it) and of course he said you were all f*****g crazy....then I fired him.