Cymbal Condensers

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dave.m.stewart

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hey there. my first post on this wonderful site. i'm a drummer and i have a roland vsession electronic kit which i play along with live, real cymbals. i need a pair of condensors i can afford that will give me a great sounding recording just like the electronic drum samples i use. was looking at sm-81s but i'm not sure if i can afford them. please help. thanks. peace -dm
 
dave.m.stewart said:
hey there. my first post on this wonderful site. i'm a drummer and i have a roland vsession electronic kit which i play along with live, real cymbals. i need a pair of condensors i can afford that will give me a great sounding recording just like the electronic drum samples i use. was looking at sm-81s but i'm not sure if i can afford them. please help. thanks. peace -dm
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The sm-81s are outstanding mics if you can afford them. They would be my first choice. The MXL 603s have a very good sound for about 1/2 the cost of the 81s. Oktava MC012s are a little more than the MXL 603s but also sound a little better. The Behringer ECM8000 is about $50 and is a very neutral, almost ruler flat response. They also can be a little noisey, but not enough for most home recordists. It's also omnidirectional, so it picks up alot of the room and is out of the question for live performances. I like the way they make my cymbals sound and I've also got the MC012s and the 603s.

When looking at the frequency chart, most people look at the high end (8khz-18khz) and think that's where the cymbals will sound good. That's where the white noise "fuzz" happens. In truth, the low mids have a great deal to do with weather the cymbals will sound REAL. Don't just go with hyped high end.
 
thanks for your input phil. i'll check those suggestions out. to anyone else out there who might have knowledge to share, all ideas are greatly appreciated. as i'm about to do with phil's response, i'll bounce the ideas i recieve here off of a couple people i know who work in studios and ultimately make a decision on what i'll buy. peace
 
forgotten thought on the matter

phil, and anyone else: one thing i forgot to mention in this matter is that i presently own no mics. as with the 81s, i would prefer a mic that could be used in as many cases as possible. i understand that 81s are rather versatile. what are these mics you're talking about like in comparison as far as ease of use with other applications. another idea, as far as cost effectiveness and versatility, how bad would it be of me to simply use sm57s as overheads? i've done it before with borrowed ones and it didn't sound tooo bad. not idea obviously, but please attempt to explained to a MINIMALLY trained ear here some of the major differences. THANKS AGAIN!
 
Another vote for the 81's if you can afford them, the 603s if you cannot. You're definitely going to want condensers, though.
 
dave.m.stewart said:
phil, and anyone else: one thing i forgot to mention in this matter is that i presently own no mics. as with the 81s, i would prefer a mic that could be used in as many cases as possible. i understand that 81s are rather versatile. what are these mics you're talking about like in comparison as far as ease of use with other applications. another idea, as far as cost effectiveness and versatility, how bad would it be of me to simply use sm57s as overheads? i've done it before with borrowed ones and it didn't sound tooo bad. not idea obviously, but please attempt to explained to a MINIMALLY trained ear here some of the major differences. THANKS AGAIN!
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SM57s can and have been used as overheads but to get good results you would need a good pre and probably a good deal of tweaking. You will get more detail from a small diaphragm condenser and find a ton more uses for it. I can recommend the oktavas - they are kind to cymbals - even my crappy 502s.

If there is a guitar center near you see if they have the oktavas. At the price you'll never regret it and they have very good resale value on ebay. Make sure you plug them in to make sure they're ok:- read this

https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=38175&highlight=oktava+keys
 
check out some joe meek JM-27's...i got mine on ebay for like $130 for the pair and they are a ton better than the 603's in my opinion...for both accoustic guitar and drum overheads...
 
Cymbal Mics

For overheads I would also suggest you look into a set of Peluso CMC6s -- they sound awesome on cymbals IMHO.

If you have a limited budget, you might want to check out Studio Projects C4 mics. I don't have any experience with the C4s, but they seem like a good bargain considering they come with different capsules, so they would have the versatility you are looking for.

One important thing to consider - you might want to try micking the cymbals from beneath or even horizontal to the kit, rather than overhead - condensors will also pick up the sounds of you hitting the electronic pads. Miking from underneath could help to minimize that.

Good luck, Rez
 
Hey man... if these are going to be your only mics, don't be afraid to buy two different condensers... you've obviously not interested in recording others so it won't be a big deal and you'll get a lot more flavor for recording other stuff.

Go spend 100 on a studio projects B1 and 100 on a MXL V67G.

You got yourself covered for overheads (they will fare well enough) and you'll also be able to mic guitar cabs, acoustics, and vocals without the results suffering as much as they would with small diaphragm condensers.

Another thing to think about is those condensers will definately pick up the pads of your drum kit. You won't be able to compressor the overheads or anything without picking that sound up.

Hope that helps.
 
You're not too far from home in La Jolla. I'm from Vista, although I'm a few hundred miles north of there right now in San Luis Obispo.
 
thanks much for that cavalcade of input. now i have some serious options to look into.

the idea of using two different mics to record my cymbals makes me uneasy. not sure why, just never tried it. i'm gonna stear clear of stooping to using 57s for sure i've decided as well. beyond that i suppose it's just going to take a lot of research. i'm more inclined to invest a little bit in a mic with solid quality control esp. since i'm going to be using these all over the place. how true are the horror stories i've read about those oktavas? also don't know jack about the others, C4s? mainly, anyone have any further input on JM-27s vs 603s? pre-s were brought up. in case it wasn't assumed by my having no mics, i have no pres to run the mics i get through presently. take note i guess.

aside from the ongoing debate here on what mics are ideal for my setup, another good point got brought up that i was actually milling over yesterday: mic placement with electronic vdrums. there is a definate very-nonmusical slappy noise from hitting the pads. i'm not that hard a hitter like some, but it's def. an issue. i'll be sure to try horizontal and lower placements. any ideas on how that'll effect the cymbals' sound though? furthermore, besides mic placement, any tips/tricks to be shared on how to remove this type of sound from a recording in the mix?

lastly, let me lay out in more detail what i'd like to record with the mics i'd wind up getting. my vdrums kit's live, real cymbals. acoustic guitar. maybe other random things like found sound stuff, a friend of mine's cello, perhaps some voice if applicable/possible - will have a 57 i can borrow soon for that and amps though. what else would these types of mics be known to be used for if anything?
 
dave, you're simply going to get too much of the drum pad sound in any OH mics you use. I'd recommend you track the Roland kit without the cymbals. After that, lose the Roland hi hat track. Then do a live cymbal overdub with your OH mics. That's the only way you're going to get something like that to sound anywhere near decent.
 
/\ What he said. There's a guy on the PMI Forums trying something similar and I reckoned he'd have that problem.
¦¦
 
umm... FUCK!!!!!!! i spent 5 grand on this kit three years ago before i had any recording knowledge with one big perk in mind being that they ought to be super easy to get to sound good recorded - so many less mics involved. apparently i missed a fundamental issue.

here's the deal: i'm a solid drummer, but when it comes to tracking, keeping a rock solid tempo has always been the hardest part for me. overdubbing cymbals on my parts would be absolute HELL. doable i suppose, but hardly the answer i'm looking for. hope it never comes to that.

what i'm thinking is perhaps if i let my amp for the vdrums be on at a low level, just louder than the slap of my pads, while i record, it might produce a more natural bleed that you would get on your cymbal recordings with traditional drums. the slap will be in there, but covered. for instance, when i play normally, with my amp on, there is not hint of the slap that you can hear. totally hidden. also, if i figure out the freq. of the god forsaken slap, maaybe i'll be able to weaken it in the mix? no? -something i know next to nothing about. please help. i'm now officially distraut.
 
Dot said:
dave, you're simply going to get too much of the drum pad sound in any OH mics you use. I'd recommend you track the Roland kit without the cymbals. After that, lose the Roland hi hat track. Then do a live cymbal overdub with your OH mics. That's the only way you're going to get something like that to sound anywhere near decent.
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Excellent point. Imagine the sound of HARD pads in the mix. :eek: I've recorded my sons V-club kit with real cymbals and have gotten decent results. I mean, what are you looking to do? If you want to record a good CD to give to friends, fans and clubs then you'll be fine. If you're looking to make professional recordings then you will need to explore other options.

Get the SM81s and get it overwith. They will last the rest of your life and your kids will get to use them too. If you are anything like ME and buy a "cheaper" mic then you will always have that nagging feeling..."maybe I should have gotten the Shures"... :D

Good luck. :)
 
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Dave - that idea might work. You know what, get some mics, stick the cymbals up and see what you get! You might be lucky.
 
i'm going to test my amp-bleed idea out with a shitty behringer mic i can borrow this weekend just to see what happens. if that goes well then i'm gonna go ahead and scrape together the money for 81s. if not, since drums will be the primary application i'm buying the mics for, i'll want to make sure the notion is even worth investing in before i spend anything. to be continued...
 
I don't see why it wouldn't help!Perhaps a small PA would do ya..As for the overheads, SM81's{I have 3} check out the GT44's they might work better for you and they are a little less expensive..Good luck
 
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