Solved Creating depth in a mix

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danny.guitar

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Since my room is untreated I have to close-mic everything or it sounds like ass.

How can I create a 3-dimensional sound stage in a mix with the use of effects? Right now it sounds very 2-dimensional. Turning down the tracks' volume + panning just isn't enough.

I've tried reverb but it just sounds like something miked close with reverb in the background. Changing the wet/dry mix just makes it sound like way too much.

Let's say there are 3 tracks. All acoustic guitars. One rhythm on the left and another on the right (each somewhere around 60%). Then there is a lead in the center.

You want it to sound like those 2 rhythm guitars are off in the distance not just "right next" to the lead guitar.

Has anyone had luck using reverb for this?

I've also tried delay with tips I've received in the past but was unsuccessful. :( :mad:
 
yep you would use reverb and a bit of EQ for that. what reverb plugins are you using? there's some killer impulses for SIR that i love to use on acoustic geetars. is your guitar all fixed now, btw?
 
zed32 said:
yep you would use reverb and a bit of EQ for that. what reverb plugins are you using? there's some killer impulses for SIR that i love to use on acoustic geetars. is your guitar all fixed now, btw?
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Yup, guitar's all fixed. :D

I've tried that free SIR reverb before with several nice room impulse responses. Anything more than "extremely subtle" sounded way too wet and bad. And "extremely subtle" wasn't enough. :( If you can recommend some good impulse responses then I'll give it another go.

Other than that, I use GlaceVerb and the Waves Renaissance reverb.

I can get a nice, pretty-realistic room sound on a single track, for like, a solo guitar recording, but when there's more than one track it just sounds like a mix with too much reverb on it.
 
i really like altiverb for creating virtual spaces. it can make your track sound like it's anywhere from a concert hall to the inside of a trash can to a cathedral to a bedroom to the inside of a 15 passenger van and everything between.
 
danny.guitar said:
Yup, guitar's all fixed. :D

I've tried that free SIR reverb before with several nice room impulse responses. Anything more than "extremely subtle" sounded way too wet and bad. And "extremely subtle" wasn't enough. :( If you can recommend some good impulse responses then I'll give it another go.

Other than that, I use GlaceVerb and the Waves Renaissance reverb.

I can get a nice, pretty-realistic room sound on a single track, for like, a solo guitar recording, but when there's more than one track it just sounds like a mix with too much reverb on it.
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you have to download these last four sets on this page for SIR:
http://noisevault.com/nv/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=29&func=selectcat&cat=7&page=2

i'm not sure the exact names of the patches i use on acoustic guitar, but i'm pretty sure the best ones for acoustic are in the "Rooms" set. try em out.
 
I was just working on a bit of a rough demo. All it had was a piano, ambient synth sounds, and a bass guitar. None of them were miced, the bass went through a DI.

I had the same issue as you, the piano (top-notch electronic grand) sounded very dull and the mix overall wasn't what I wanted. I put a not-so-subtle plate reverb and EQ on the piano and a 150hz lowpass on the bass. The reverb really did it. In terms of a dry/wet mix I was about 65% wet 35% dry.
 
I think reverb will basically do what you want, but often you really have to tweak a reverb to get it to sound right. You can't just expect to pull up a preset and have it be perfect. Predelay, diffusion, early reflections, and obviously decay time are hugely important as are any other variables your reverb plug offers. You may end up eqing the reverb as well if it's too bright or dark. It can take a long time to set one up.

That said, some reverb plugs really do sound awful no matter what you do. I don't have the RenVerb so I can't comment. At the other end you use something like the UAD Plate 140 and it's like ...ahhhhh...
 
the cool thing about SIR is that you can adjust the EQ, decay, predelay and all that other junk too. even though they use pre-made reverb impulses you can still tweak em a bit.
 
danny.guitar said:
Since my room is untreated I have to close-mic everything or it sounds like ass.
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try putting some distance between the source and mic. use a good mic.
 
engine joe said:
try putting some distance between the source and mic. use a good mic.
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Yeah...more than a foot and there is too much room influence. I'm stuck using omni SDC mics at the moment.

A song that comes to mind, that can explain what I'm talking about is "Dobie Gray - Drift Away". The mix sounds cohesive, but each instrument is occupying it's own space.

The electric guitars have their own space, they sound isolated from everything else. Sounds like a real room (because it probably was) and not like a digital reverb plugin added on a track. No audible echo/reverberation but it still sits in its own place in the mix and sounds like it's playing in a different area of the room than everything else.

Not sure if that makes sense or not.

Another song is "Guns N Roses - Patience". This sounds like a live recording. No instruments are competing with other ones. Everything has its own space. Not frequency-wise, but depth-wise. There is a visible sound stage when listening to the recording.

Is this kind of thing even possible to achieve with reverb plugins?
 
not really dude, that stuff was probably recorded in an awesome sounding room with top notch gear and instruments.
 
You can do it with reverb, it just takes some tweaking.
 
danny.guitar said:
Since my room is untreated I have to close-mic everything or it sounds like ass.

... I've tried reverb but it just sounds like something miked close with reverb in the background.
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Danny, stop for a second here.

Just for a second.

You're telling us that you're close-micing everything and adding reverb ... and your stuff sounds .... like it's close miked, with reverb added.

It's neat how that all works out like that, huh? Life works like that.

Look Danny, if in your travels you should somehow stumble upon a way of making a close-miked guitar with reverb sound like a guitar that was miked from a distance with depth and dimension ... then I'm gonna' pin a big, fat metal on your head. Gold-fucking plated (with the words "Danny is God" inscribed in it), with a God-damn ice cream float and cherries to boot, my friend.

The moral of the story, here, Danny, is this ... If you want your meal to taste more like steak, then you might start by ordering or preparing a steak. You can dress that cheezeborger up any way you'd like, but it's still gonna' be a cheezeborger. And if you try to make it taste like a steak by slapping A-1 on it or something, then it's still gonna' be a fucking cheezeborger with A-1 on it!

Which isn't actually that bad when you think about it. I love A-1 on a good, greasy burger. But then I also like Tobasco sauce and jalapenos slices, but I'm kinda' weird like that.

.
 
If you Don't want an Obvious reverb sound then use delay to create early reflections only. Also try using a compressor in the reverb sends to duck the reverb effect when the signal is strongest.


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flatfinger said:
If you Don't want an Obvious reverb sound then use delay to create early reflections only. Also try using a compressor in the reverb sends to duck the reverb effect when the signal is strongest.


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there's a plugin called MDSP DuckVerb that has a built in compressor on the reverb. it's actually pretty nice.

http://mdsp.smartelectronix.com/classic/
 
Double tracking rythym guitars is a good start.
Adding sublte delays to things is worth trying also.

reverb to things can help clean guitars, but distorted guitars dont really need reverb usualy IMO if they are double tracked and panned.

Eck
 
Also try EQing the send to the reverb, roll off a bit of high end, maybe even add a bit of bottom. Think about how acoustics work in a room and try to simulate it. Slapping on a reverb to a close miked track is going to sound exactly as you've described.
 
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