Could you take a look at this diagram I made for a live sound setup?

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Kerrie

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Hi all. :)

My first post here. I have some friends (a girl band) that are convinced that I can set up a PA system for them for a show they have coming up. They bought a bunch of live sound gear but none of them have a clue how to set it up.

A disclaimer... I'm a web designer, not an audio engineer, but I've done lots of reading as of late about it. I have a good understanding of how the mixer works, bussing, gain staging, etc... but before I connect everything together, could someone take a look at this diagram I made of the connections I'm going to try and make? Does everything look alright? Or am I messing something up?

Note: the mixer, power amps and eqs are in a rack but I just drew it that way in the diagram to make it easier to see how I'm going to connect it all together.

Thanks so much for any insight and hopefully I won't get flamed for being such a noob! :o

Cheers!
~Kerrie
 

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Thanks for the replies! Glad to see I had it right. :)

To answer your question, the monitor amp is 300w rms per channel @ 4 ohms. And the mains amp is 700w rms per channel @ 4 ohms.
 
Looks OK but be cautious about the settings of the EQ's. Don't get too radical or you could generate a bunch of problems. Oh yeah....once you have it set, don't screw around with it. Worst thing that can happen to a show is intermittent feedback induced by rookie soundman moving controls "to see (hear) what happens if I move this knob"

chazba
 
I had someone come up to me while I was mixing a gig and said;

"What would happen if I turned this knob?"

My Answer:

"You will get a punch on the nose"

Cheers

Alan.
 
+1 on EQ settings. Basically, if there is no feedback, DON'T TOUCH THE EQ'S. If there is feedback, find the eq slider that removes it, and be as conservative as you can with it.

Get you and the system there a minimum of two or three hours before the band. Trust me on this one.

If the mixer does not have on-board effects, you should include a reverb unit- but only for an outdoor or very dead room. I rarely need to add reverb to inside shows- all it does is muddy up the sound. If someone in the band says they want 'verb, say "okay" and pretend to move a knob.

NO OTHER EFFECTS, except if the singer is a belter, some modest compression can save speakers.

Run your FOH speakers in mono. Only exception is if you have a keyboardist who likes spacy stuff.

don't mic the drums unless you need to. Many shows do not need mic'ed drums. This will make your job much easier, and (usually) the sound much better.

But DO mic the guitar and bass amps, or go from their line-out to the board. Convince guitarist and bassist to keep their amps turned down (or to use smaller amp if the guitarist likes the hard-driven tube amp sound like I do)- this gives you more control over what goes to fold-back (monitor) speakers and FOH.

If you want to run the FOH or monitor signal thru the snake, run it as a line-level signal, NOT as an amplified signal, which will burn out your snake. Best to put the power amps on the stage or as close to the speakers as reasonable, and keep your speaker cable runs as short as you can. (I keep my power amps in their own rack, with a empty rack space between each for cooling- and have a aux. cooling fan for them, just in case.)

Pay careful attention to speaker impedence load- if amp says 4 ohm minimum, do NOT connect three 8 ohm speakers in parallel to it, etc.

Bring extra fuses for everything.
 
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stevieb said:
If someone in the band says they want 'verb, say "okay" and pretend to move a knob.
Click to expand...

Hahaa, I remember when I first got a 101 of a mixer a few years ago. The first thing he taught me was about the 'DFA button'... does F'-all. Pick a button/pot on the desk (I usually use the buttons on the [disabled] tone/pink noise generator) and twiddle it when someone from the band complains to make them think you've done something. Easier than arguing with someone who definitely knows best.
 
mattr said:
Hahaa, I remember when I first got a 101 of a mixer a few years ago. The first thing he taught me was about the 'DFA button'... does F'-all. Pick a button/pot on the desk (I usually use the buttons on the [disabled] tone/pink noise generator) and twiddle it when someone from the band complains to make them think you've done something. Easier than arguing with someone who definitely knows best.
Click to expand...

Unfortunatly I was playing a show a few weeks ago, and all I wanted the sound man to do was to low pass the guitar and bass. The low end was so loud I could not hear anything at all and my vision started shakeing and everything. It was the worst sound ever. The constant low frequency feed just going and going. He said 'ok I fixed it'. Which did nothing. rrrr
 
Usually if someone comes up to me to complain about the volume I turn down the headphone volume. They then look at me and say "Thats Better".

I had one very hard to deal with venue owner shouting at my lighting operator about the drums being too loud?

Cheers

Alan.
 
Thanks a million for all the suggestions! :)

I'll give it my best go!

One question...

I do need to mic the drums - it's a tiny little jazz fusion kit with a 16" bass drum... and it's a pretty big place indoors they are playing. I am going to use 2 overheads, a kick mic and a mic between the snare and hi hat.

There's 2 guitars, both 12" marshall combos. I'm putting a SM57 on each of those.

And there is an ampeg B2R bass head running a 4x10 cabby.

Do I really need to be running the bass amp through the FOH speakers?

The FOH speakers seem not to be liking it much when I tested it out and the amp is just ridiculously loud anyhow compared to the two 12" combo guitar amps. (btw, I'm not micing the bass amp but rather, using one of those DI box thing-fishies :D )

The FOH speakers are going to be set up on stage on the sides in front of the band and monitors.
 
Kerrie said:
Do I really need to be running the bass amp through the FOH speakers?

The FOH speakers seem not to be liking it much when I tested it out and the amp is just ridiculously loud anyhow compared to the two 12" combo guitar amps. (btw, I'm not micing the bass amp but rather, using one of those DI box thing-fishies :D )

The FOH speakers are going to be set up on stage on the sides in front of the band and monitors.
Click to expand...
You need to find out why the FOH don't seem to be liking it like you said. Now's the time to check that out instead of trying to fix it in the mix. It's already sounding like a volume balance problem with the bass. You need to keep that puppy tamed. Things can go haywire when the bass is too loud. I'm guessing the problem you're hearing is standing waves from no sound treatment in the room. If so that'll effect the bands' performance too.

I thinking you should mic him also and run his mic through the FOH and not the D/I. Give him alot of monitor too because if he don't hear himself in the mix he'll just play louder.

Be careful with the FOH up on the stage especially if the stage is tall. You don't want to split the FOH vertically from the instrument amps too far and if you can tilt the FOH down towards your audience.
 
Thanks for the info about the bass. I'll try miking it.

Regarding my main EQ, it has knobs to cut off really low and really high frequencies. Is there a point for the low and highs that I should be rolling off?

Also, any general frequencies that I should boost or pull of the 31 bands?

NYMorningstar said:
You don't want to split the FOH vertically from the instrument amps too far
Click to expand...

Sorry, I'm not understanding what you mean. :( But just to mention, the stage is only about 4' high.

Thanks!
Kerrie
 
I am not understanding NYM's statment about "splitting" the FOH", either.

If you gotta mic the drums, you gotta mic the drums, but from my experience, rock drummers pound the skins pretty hard and loud, if the act is rock- and IMHO girl drummers (girl rockers in general, really) are usually trying to prove to everyone that they have as much testostorone as the guys do, and probably hit 'em even harder. Anyway, your drum mic rig sounds about as basic as you can get, but if there are only two cymbals and the drummer likes them fairly close, you might get by with only one overhead. Simple pictures are best!

A recurring problem live sound men often encounter is one bad actor who just won't turn down his amp. Sounds like your bassist may have this disease... if you must, get strong with her, and/or feed her LOTS of her own stuff in the monitors at sound check- she should see the light- or feel the heat, at least. She should complain that
I can't hear anyone else in the monitors," to which you tell her "You have your rig turned up so loud, no one else can hear them, either." You are the sound man- responsible for the way the WHOLE band sounds to the audience- it reflects badly on YOU if the mix is not balanced. Noobs at this are at risk of being bossed around by the band members- don't let it happen to you. If someone is too loud, tell them so, and make it stick.

IMHO, you are headed down the wrong path about the EQ. Let me repeat:
Basically, if there is no feedback, DON'T TOUCH THE EQ'S. If there is feedback, find the eq slider that removes it, and be as conservative as you can with it.

IF (big IF) the space swallows up one of the musician's stuff, or loves someone's stuff so much it wants to blast it to the entire world, okay, use the EQ to correct that- but only after you have had that musician play either louder or softer.

Remember: You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Or, for the IT person you are:

Garbage in, garbage out.
 
If the stage is 4' high and your FOH speakers are on speaker stands and raised up 5' then you have your FOH 6' above your audience and your instrument amps 1' above them assuming they're sitting. That's not too bad but I'd still try to equal that out some otherwise all the audience in front will be hearing is the instrument amps and drums unless everything is set back aways.

I agree with using the EQ for only corrective reasons but you might want to consider using a different mix for recording this, if you do, than the mix your using for the FOH. Reason being is if the room is untreated you'll get standing bass waves which means you'll need very little volume for a loud bass(nothing is absorbing it) and your recorded mix will be light on the bass.
 
Thanks for the additional insight guys. :)

Understood regarding EQ. This 31 band main eq has that feedback destroyer thing that has little LED lights that blink on the frequencies causing feedback.

NYM, I understand what you mean now... the speakers are like 4' tall, but aren't on stands. Each is just a cabinet with two 15's on top of each other and a horn in the very top.
 
Hey dude. You've got a great setup there. L/R mains, 2 aux sends for monitors. Pretty good for a club act. You'll do just fine!

Here's a couple of key points I've learned from my few years playing shitty clubs and setting up sound.

1. Try and keep the stage volume as low as possible, let the FOH provide the volume.

2. Use your graphic eq's to increase headroom and solve problem frequencies. These aren't for creativity, they are to solve problems.

3. Try and eliminate as much low frequency content from signals as possible, stop before they sound thin.

4. Set the microphones up so that their 'null' points face the monitors.

5. If your band has a 'rock-star' attitude (I just have to have my amp @ 11 to get the tone) there's nothing you can do. Smile and keep given' er.

6. Decide beforehand if you want the kickdrum to have the thump or the bass to have the thump. EQ accordingly.

GL with the gig. Remember you can't work miracles, just try and keep everything clear and focused. If a bandmember refuses to play 'nice' with their volumes smile and do the best you can. You may be able to explain that the bass may seem quite reasonable on the stage but it's killing any small mammals farther back in the club. Usually it doesn't work, musicians at every level have bad ego's.


Ciao,
Andy
 
stevieb said:
You are the sound man- responsible for the way the WHOLE band sounds to the audience- it reflects badly on YOU if the mix is not balanced.
Click to expand...

You mean sound woman... :D;)


EDIT... thanks Andy for the additional tips!
 
Oh yea... since you guys have advised miking the bass amp... all I'll have left over is a few 58's... would one of those work in a pinch?

Also, I have some problems with the monitors feeding back. When you said "null points" of the mic pointing toward the monitors do you just mean where the cable is plugged in? And should the mic be in front of the monitor of off to the side?

Thanks!
 
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