Control Room Window Framing - Need Advice. John, anyone?

[Michael Jones]

Good info there Don.
I was wondering if you could sandwich some thin foam (like what is used between the base plate and the foundation) or thin rubber between the two sheets of drywall on a typical studio, and the site had this to say about it:
"...(sic)The most effective way to increase damping is through the use of a viscous interlayer such as polymeric barrier mat. ..."

So, it seems like it might work, but I wonder how effective it is?

Anyway, thanks again for the link.

 

[Transputer]

Hey DD keep those pics coming - looking good.

Have you checked out the http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/reports/
info very good stuff:
RD1995/6
Lightweight partitions having improved low frequency sound insulation.
(G.D. Plumb)

is a good read, having the space to build like this is something I don't have unfortunately good to know though.

Cheers

 

[John Sayers]

DD - try this

cheers
JOhn

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hello John, say, I looked at your solution, both the plan and vertical sections, but I am still uncertain what happens with the casement on the sides. There is no lateral support(jack studs?) or nailing surface for the sheetrock along the vertical casement. The plan section shows the 2 x 6 beam on one side, cantilevering on each end to nothing. Is that what is happening to the header above also? Where is the header load distributing to? Its as if the studs and header above the window are simply hanging from the plate I drew a plan section through the windows, and there is nothing that keeps this frame work in line with the plates.(studs along the casement sides) I don't know about Austrailia, but I don't think this would pass code here, as the whole window framwork has nothing in lateral sheer but the sheetrock and glass. Add the weight of the glass and it looks to me as if this whole window frame and studs below and above could be highly unstable in perpendicular load. Maybe I'm missing something. Can you clarify these sections Please do not consider this as an afront or questioning your ability, cause that is not the case. I highly regard your design expertize and experience but I just don't understand whats going on with these sections. It did however, seperate the window cases. (sill, jamb or whatever you call the 1x frames)
fitz

 

[ausrock]

I'll stick my beak in here again.............

Rick,

I would lay money on these diagrams being meant as a guide only, not something that is to be taken as gospel "as is".

Take the basic concept in those diagrams, then adapt them to suit your local building codes.

I'm sorry, but I think the whole thing is pretty damned obvious.

 

[DigitalDon]

Thanks John,
Your drawing is very similiar to what I'm doing. The only difference is where you show the 6 x 1 1/2" beam standing up under the sills. What I'm doing is mounting the 6 x 1/2" flat as the window sill and supported underneath by 2 x 4" cripple studs. Also, I "box in" the window frame by running 2 x 4"s vertically from the sill (now the 6 x 1 1/2") to the 6 x 1 1/2" located above the window. I know this causes the "box" to protrude out from the wall but it also gives me more seperation between the 2 window panes.

Can someone tell me the recommended angles of the 2 windows?

Mike - "viscous interlayer such as polymeric barrier mat...." I've seen this mentioned before elsewhere. I'm sure it would have some positive effect but I think they sell this stuff too .

Transputer - thanks. I'll pull it up today.

DD

 

[ausrock]

DD,

From memory, the 12 degrees off parallel for walls can also be applied to the windows.

However, according to a local glazing company, research into acoustic insulation in this application has shown that angling the sheets of glass does little to reduce sound transmission. Using disimilar thicknesses of glass (which you are doing), does more to reduce the transmitted sound.

Also laminated glass is even more efficient in this regard, particularly if you can source the laminated glass specifically made for reducing acoustic transmission, with a slightly thicker membrane between the laminations.

Angling the glass does have some benefits...........it reduces the tendancy for images to reflect back and forth between the sheets and it gives you an angled surface in the tracking or control rooms, etc.,

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hello ausrock, hey, whats up with you. The only thing thats obvious, is people arn't allowed to question things here. I am NOT trying to ruffle feathers! But if you look at these sections, and take it literaly, they DON"T work. If I tried to adapted them to our codes, they would be totally useless as it would "short out" the connection from one face to the other. Excuse me, but just because someoned can post a partial solution, and says" try this" doesn't mean that everyone here has the abitlty to read minds and then builds it as shown! By the time they got the sheetrock up to the window, they would be scratching their head. I have said this time and time again.NO OFFENCE INTENDED, but since this IS a public forum, I WILL question things that don't seem right to me, just for clarification. And if that does ruffle feathers, then that tells me something. No one has to answer me, but that would speak for itself. So if my asking politely, for a little for clarity on something and you don't like it, to friggin bad.
I know most of the people here are very intuitive and CAN see that Mr. Sayer is kind enough to spend his time helping, even if the solution is not complete. However, from my perspective, I see people here all the time who trust Mr Sayers advice and take it literally. In this particular instance, it could possibly get someone in a quagmire. Thats all. Mr. Sayer, again, please. Take no offence. All I'm asking for is enlightenment.
fitz
Ps

Also laminated glass is even more efficient in this regard, particularly if you can source the laminated glass specifically made for

Ausrock, if memory serves me,I can only say, from what I've read at the John Storyk site is this is incorrect. But I will double check. I've been wrong before. And I'm not afraid to admit it when it happens.

 

[Michael Jones]

Rick - It's all good man.
I appreciate your attention to detail.

You are right about there being a need for jack studs; cripples as well. There should also be a heavy header in the framing above the glass.

I'm working on a very similar detail right now that I think would be more applicable to the UBC. This is for a "double wall" and not a "staggered stud" design though. When I finish it I'll make it available for all, but here's is what I have so far. This is acutally a 3-D rendering of that portion of the framing. In the final version, I'll show how I would have a glazer set the glass, but it will be very similar to the first detail I posted from John's site. It will also include the trim out as well.

In regards to the detail John posted for a staggered stud construction, it seems to me like the seal plates can cantilever out far enough to accomodate sheathing and a couple of layers of dry wall.

(The zip file is a .doc that will open in Word for Windows.
The green studs are the jack studs for the seal plate, and the red studs are the jack's for the header. The header is 1/2" plywood sandwiched between 2 2x8's with cripples above.)

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hello Michael, and thanks for your comments. And Ausrock, I have to admit, my memory did not serve me well. I WAS WRONG!!! OK, what I did was take something out of context. What it DOES say, is most studios opt for float, as the cost is astronomical for laminated compared to float/plate. I AM SORRY! I knew better than to open my mouth too soon.
fitz

 

[frederic]

Hello Michael, and thanks for your comments. And Ausrock, I have to admit, my memory did not serve me well. I WAS WRONG!!! OK, what I did was take something out of context. What it DOES say, is most studios opt for float, as the cost is astronomical for laminated compared to float/plate. I AM SORRY! I knew better than to open my mouth too soon.
fitz

Thats okay Rick, while your mouth is open that wide feel free to shove in a few toasted marshmallows

Just kidding friend!

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hello hello hello, frederic, where you been? As if I didn't know I'll take you up on the meller's, but I'll make em "smores" Well, I always said every forum needs someone to make a fool out themself so the others look good. And since I'm so good at it, well....... How ya doin frederic, missed your insight around here! Shoot, the only thing I got to do anymore is rile up everybody I see the feathers are still floatin around! Don't mean to though, its just my nature. My wife says I have a shitty attitude. Show me an Irishman thats NOT drunk, and I'll show you one who's got a shitty attitude I quit drinking a long time ago. Maybe I should start. Either that or roll a fattie. I try not to do that either. But damn, sometimes I just have to give in!
And DD, sorry for gettin envolved with your post. Next time I open my mouth, I'll shove a meller" in it like frederic said.
fitz

 

[ausrock]

Rick,

Apologies not necessary

I guess by nature, I take advice and suggestions given here less literally than other people here may (and I may be over presumptuous in the following), but I would like to think that most "questioners" here realise the difficulties in giving accurate answers.

You know as well as I, that if you have detailed plans and specifications for a job then you should be able to give a detailed answer. If you don't have those plans, etc., then any answer to queries is likely to be a generalisation.

All you can hope for is to have planted a seed in peoples' imagination which they can take and grow into whatever they wish. Sometimes they will come back looking for assistance to nuture that growth, but you can't do it for them, all you can do is assist...........

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Thanks Ausrock, say, I JUST now found out how to convert autocad to .gif. I'm going to post this, and see if it works. It's just a test for scale and readability. I've never done this so bear with me. I'll get right yet!
fitz

opps, the file name comes from my kitchen file. I just opened it and used some of the objects to draw this. Ok? THIS IS JUST A TEST, although it is the same as Johns, only I added the studs at the ends. Its not meant for APPROVAL! But if this does work, I'll post my drawings instead of my mouth

<img src=http://home.rcsis.com/beachchic/kitchen1.gif>

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Damn, can someone tell me what the hell I'm doing wrong? http://home.rcsis.com/beachchic/kitchen1.gif

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!OK, cool.....crap how did I do that?

 

[John Sayers]

DD - the glass angle is basically the greatest you can can get within your frames.

don't forget the silica granules in the sealed window cavity or you'll fog up

cheers
john

 

[DigitalDon]

Rick - no problem buddy. I'm always all ears.

John - Yeah, I already have the silica packs. I shooting for about 4" of seperation between the glass bottoms and as much angle as I can get while still providing adequate support for the glass.

Just finished wiring the electrical outlets (about 99% anyhow). I'm mixing down a demo for my son's band right now so I won't be back on it until probably Thursday. Also, weather permitting, the power company will be out Thursday to hook up. I've tried to get as much wiring completed as possible before the main panel goes hot. I don't mind wiring in a hot panel but it's much less "worrysome."

DD

 

[smellyfuzz]

I love to rub my cork on glass.

 

[DigitalDon]

Rick - so how did you convert the file? I'm "using" Autocad R14. Would it have that feature?

SmellyWhatever - watch the edge of the glass. It hasn't been ground smooth