Condenser in an untreated room

WeeWoo

New member
Currently I have a single SM57 close-miced on my cab and am very happy with the tone. However I would like to experiment with condensers and see what they can do for me.

My question is, since a condenser is going to pick up more room sound, and the room in untreated, will it kill my recording tone?

I tried backing off the SM57 to capture more natural reverb, and it was quite crap for rhythm work but leads weren't bad.

The bottom line: will an untreated room negatively affect guitar tone from a condenser?
 
I don't know that condensers are that widely used for micing cabs.
You will definitely pick up more of the room sound with a condenser.
Could be a a good thing could be a bad thing.

Any reason in particular why you want to try a condenser? Is there something with your guitar recordings that you aren't happy with?
 
My question is, since a condenser is going to pick up more room sound, and the room in untreated, will it kill my recording tone?
...
The bottom line: will an untreated room negatively affect guitar tone from a condenser?
Trying to lump all condensers together like that is like trying to lump all sports shoes together into one category. There are going to be just as many condensers that are as different from one another as those that are as different from your 57.

And just because a mic is a condenser does NOT necessarily mean it will pick up "more of the room".

I suggest that you check out Jon O'Neil's 2-part article on microphone specs:

Part 1
Part 2

This guy makes and sells his own custom microphones for a living; he's a good man to listen to on this subject.

G.
 
- There's nothing wrong with a condenser on a cab, and it is actually quite common.

- Typically, the average condenser has a more pronounced high freq response than the average dynamic - combine that with more high freq content in your room reflections and you will perceive more room sound being picked up. This is all dependant on the mic itself... polar pattern, where the polar pattern is directed in relation to room reflections, freq response, etc.

- Moving the amp, furnishings in the room, mic position, or even just moving to a different room altogether will change the sound. If the front of your condenser is facing a big flat bare wall, you will hear more of the reverb off that wall than if it's facing, say, an upturned mattress. Don't point the amp at parallel walls to help cut down on standing waves, flutter, and what not. Try things... in other words, don't just set up the amp and mic where they look good. Even just twisting a mic can make a huge difference.

- Try different mics and micing techniques for different parts. This will not only improve the quality of your final mix because you'll capture a different balance of harmonics in the different parts which will help you more than EQ, but will also avoid you having to compromise on having crap rhythm parts and good lead parts.
 
- Try different mics and micing techniques for different parts. This will not only improve the quality of your final mix because you'll capture a different balance of harmonics in the different parts which will help you more than EQ, but will also avoid you having to compromise on having crap rhythm parts and good lead parts.

Sound advice, so If I understand you correctly, I just have to put some effort in the actual placement of the mic to minimize any negative impact of an untreated room?

I am actually pretty happy with just the one sm57, I really just wanted to experiment and see what kind of variations I can get, but maybe it it aint broke I shouldn't fix it :P
 
Close mic = lots of cab, minimal room sound; distant mic = Some cab, some room sound. The ratio of cab to room sound (and the nature of the sounds themselves) that the mic picks up will be dependant on your tone, the cab itself, the volume you play at, where you put the cab in the room, the size and geometry of the room, what the room's been constructed of, furnishings in the room, where the furnishings have been placed, the mic you use, and where you place the mic. Probably not the simple answer you were looking for, but these are all things to consider. You're probably not about to go re-arranging the room or moving to another room altogether, so the most practical things to focus on would be mic selection, mic placement AND orientation, and the placement of the cab itself.

The bottom line: An untreated room will have an affect on the guitar tone, and so will a treated room. It will be harder to achieve a good sound in an untreated (or treated, but unsuitable) room, but not impossible. Sure, you may be unlucky and have a room in which you'll never be able to achieve a good sound, but it's probably most likely that you have a room in which you'll be able to achieve something close to an acceptable sound. It really is a matter of thinking about how you go about it, and trying things.

I could offer many ways to go about doing it, but I guess it's probably more appropriate if I ask what are you actually trying to achieve? Having it clear in your mind what you are trying to achieve will probably help you help yourself as well.

Anyway... one of the first things you could try doing is unplugging the guitar and holding a finger on the tip of your guitar lead. The buzz this creates going through the amp contains a similar spread of frequencies to what a guitar does... so while doing this, chuck on some headphones, gain the mic, have the amp low enough that you can hear the sound in your headphones more than the amp, and toy around with mic positions while listening. The thing to listen for here is not just the room/cab relationship, but also the balance of harmonics in the sound the mic is picking up and trying to translate that to the guitar sound that will be coming through later. Once you've done it once, do it again with a radically different cab position. Say you had the cab pointing at a flat bare wall, point it into, say, a corner that has a couch in it.

Don't forget to play around with the mic angle as well. Find a spot where the cab sounds good, and if the room's still crashing in try twisting the mic so the angle (but not the position) of the diaphragm changes. Even just having carpet on the floor could make a big difference in your sound without having to move anything but the angle of the mic. Sure, it will sound more dull, but the great thing is that as the mic is still in the same piece of air so you'll still picking up the same harmonics. Boosting the treble a touch with some judicious eq will restore the brilliance you loose quite easily while also adding a sense of 'air' to the sound.

Work out what you want to achieve, then try different things until you achieve it. Learn from what doesn't work, learn from what does work. You will eventually figure something out.
 
Just use the 57 for up close along with a conenser about 6ft. back....then move it around untill you hear somthing you like!!!
 
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