Compression Question in Le 4

J

Jeremy Muller

New member
Trying not to beat a dead horse, but...been doing a lot of reading on compressors. Thought I had a small clue. Began compressing some vox. Okay, got some results. I have been following some presonus guidelines for using compressors. Why does Cubase Le4 compressor not have settings anywhere close to these guidelines? Examples: suggested setting for attack on different types of vox is .002ms (that's two-thousandths of a millisecond). Cubase only goes to 0.1 (one tenth). However this is not labeled as ms or anything else. Would this be something other than ms in Cubase? Similarly, threshold on a mix setting was threshold of +5.5dB. Cubase goes to 0.0dB. Although not labeled as dB. Also, ratio suggested at 10:1, Cubase goes to 8:1. Now this last one may make sense because at 10:1 I could use the limiter instead of compressor (right?). So I am wondering about the limitations of the le4 compressor or if I am comparing wrong units or something.

Finally I was trying to compress a stereo mix of multiple channels. I had a threshold of -1.6, ratio of 7.1:1, attack of 0.1 and release of 98. Okay. The input level was +4.3dB, yet the gain reduction was only -0.4 for a final output of +4.0dB. huh? I thought I understood the math, at least to a degree where the numbers would make a little sense to me. Am I just really lost in my understanding? Any help and I'll name my 1st born after you...well, maybe a pet. Thanks.
 
I usually have a slow attack for vocals. Look, guidelines will only do so much. The best thing to do is not following directions, but learning what each one does so much, that you almost instantly know yourself what is going to sound good and how to make it sound good yourself without directions or guidelines.

Now, having said that, yes, I would say the LE4 compressor is somewhat limited but is still capable. You have a light edition of Cubase but you can still find some free plugins on the internet (just make sure the site is safe).

Still, I NEVER compress above 5:1 ratio unless I have the intention of absolutely squashing something for an effect. I don't know why Presonus' threshold would go above 0.0 dB as that is just encouraging clipping. Maybe someone could give extra info on that.

Really, not all compressors do EXACTLY the same thing.
 
Okay. Thanks. I sort of expected that. I really want to spend most of my time on songwriting and not on the tech aspects of recording, but nowadays the sound from "home" can sound so good that just a demo of a song sounds like my six year old dragging a sick cat over broken wind chimes. So I just gotta keep learning and trial and erring it, eh? Or spend real money having someone do it for me, which ain't possible. Thanks again, and any further thoughts on compression from anyone will still be helpful, 'cause I just don't hear much however I fiddle with the knobs.
 
Really, once you have everything learned (which will undoubtedly take time), things actually go faster than looking and following.


Here is what a compressor does in a nut-shell: it makes the loud sounds quieter and the quiet sounds louder.

First you have your threshold, which means that what ever passes that threshold in level will be compressed.

Then you have ratio, which does the "loud sounds quieter" part. If you have a 2:1 ratio, that means for every 2 dB that passes the threshold, only 1 will be put out.

Then you have your output gain, which does the "quiet sounds louder" part. When you raise the output gain, you are raising the entire track, but remember, only the loud parts were compressed, so now the quiet parts are being raised without compression and sound a little more even with the louder parts.


Finally there is attack and release; attack is how quickly the compressor grabs the audio. For drums, I like to have a very quick attack and for acoustic guitar and vocals, I like to have a slower one. The release is exactly what the name implies: when the compressor will release its grip on the audio. I just fiddle around with that one and see which is best.
 
Okay. Thanks. That helps - didn't realize the "quiet sounds louder" part. To do this you said "output gain". Is that the "make-up" knob? If so, would it work fine on "auto" setting? If not "auto" I am guessing I would keep this relatively low otherwise I would lose some of the dynamics, right? Probably all depends and have to fiddle to find out. Thanks again.
 
Jeremy Muller said:
Okay. Thanks. That helps - didn't realize the "quiet sounds louder" part. To do this you said "output gain". Is that the "make-up" knob? If so, would it work fine on "auto" setting? If not "auto" I am guessing I would keep this relatively low otherwise I would lose some of the dynamics, right? Probably all depends and have to fiddle to find out. Thanks again.
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Gain is just gain. It won't change the dynamics, just the level. Threshold, ratio, attack and release all work together to alter the dynamics, generally lowering the level of anything over the threshold. Since you're lowering levels at the top the makeup gain lets you compensate by raising the level of the whole signal.

Auto makeup gain in this application is more annoying than useful. Turn it off and do it by ear.
 
Okay. Great. Thanks again. You're welcome to ignore me now....but I just read a post from a few years back that was kind of a "compressor for beginners". It said to isolate an instrument, start with threshold on 0.0dB and gain at 0.0 and attack and release on fast. Then move threshold down 2 or 3 dB, start turning ratio and see what you hear. Fiddle with A&R and listen. Then reset ratio and A&R and take threshold down another 3 dB and fiddle. And keep repeating this to get a sense of what's going on. So I isolated a rhythm electric guitar track and did this for quite a while. Must say I heard very little difference even with great swings in ratio and A&R. I certainly didn't hear anything that would help an instrument "sit" in the track or make a bass more prominent, just a decrease in volume. So why do I hear people talk about compression as tho it's an effect as well as a volume manipulator? Is this true only of "real" compressors as opposed to what's on my Cubase le4?
 
Jeremy Muller said:
So why do I hear people talk about compression as tho it's an effect as well as a volume manipulator? Is this true only of "real" compressors as opposed to what's on my Cubase le4?
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It takes a while to learn to really hear what compression is doing. There are different ways of applying compression. First of all you need to learn to hear when something is more dynamic than you want it to be.

When I decide something is too dynamic I'll set its level in the mix so the quietest parts are right in the mix but the loud parts pop out. Then I'll make an educated guess what the ratio, attack and release settings will be and lower the threshold until I get some reduction. Then I fiddle with the parameters until I get the desired result. If the track has too much dynamics I'll chop it up and even out the differences with clip gain.

Whether it's an effect or just an automatic volume control is a matter of perception. Compressors were invented to control volume faster than someone could move a fader, but they do impart sonic characteristics that have inspired engineers to use them more creatively. Different compressors sound different so if you want a particular sound you might need a particular compressor, hardware or plugin.
 
CrowsofFritz said:
I don't know why I haven't thought of this. I'm going to start doing that.
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Well, there's no one right way to do it, but a consistent defined starting point helps.

I do something similar with eq, pick one frequency range and mix elements correctly in that range, and then I mix the other frequency ranges with eq.

In fact I do that with the whole mix, set the kick peaks to about -12dBFS and set all the other levels to that. Various other instruments could be used instead of kick.
 
Helpful again. Thanks. Another example of where I'm not quite getting it...yet(?). Kick drum was getting lost in the mix. One of the things I read had some suggested settings to try to bring the kick out and make it snap. Just what I need. So I plugged in those general numbers and then played with them a bit, but I don't hear that kick snap. Still trying. Having trouble also knowing how much makeup gain to add to bring things up, but not up beyond where they were originally. I know, lotsa practice. Thanks again and anymore tips I will gladly read.
 
Jeremy Muller said:
Kick drum was getting lost in the mix.
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That may be eq as much as dynamics. I rarely compress kick these days unless it's really unevenly played. Try balancing the low end of the kick with the low end of the bass until they work together, the bump of the kick acting as the initial transient of the bass note that sustains between kick hits. You could solo the two or do it in the mix. Then use eq to make the click of the kick sit with the mids and highs of the mix. Of course there are eight million ways to approach it and this is just one.
 
I know that was supposed to help, but that just raised about 20 more questions. Not sure I should bother you with them...When you said "balancing the low end of kick with low end of bass" I thought you were talking about EQ, but then you say use EQ to make click of kick sit with mids and highs. So, (1) what do you mean make click sit with mids and highs? Adjust EQ so they are same/similar frequencies, or so they do not overrise/get lost with each other? (2)Balancing lows with EQ similar to mids/highs and click? or something else? Damn. The more that I ask gets answered the more I don't know and the more I ask and ad infinitum. When/how do I get to where I can record and mix and feel pretty confident I have done what I can and I'm not missing something? I know, don't say it, "you'll hear it", right? But I don't know what I can't hear, or I can't hear what isn't there. I need a "de-frustration" plug-in! Ah hem, thanks.
 
Jeremy Muller said:
I know that was supposed to help, but that just raised about 20 more questions. Not sure I should bother you with them...When you said "balancing the low end of kick with low end of bass" I thought you were talking about EQ, but then you say use EQ to make click of kick sit with mids and highs. So, (1) what do you mean make click sit with mids and highs? Adjust EQ so they are same/similar frequencies, or so they do not overrise/get lost with each other? (2)Balancing lows with EQ similar to mids/highs and click? or something else? Damn. The more that I ask gets answered the more I don't know and the more I ask and ad infinitum. When/how do I get to where I can record and mix and feel pretty confident I have done what I can and I'm not missing something? I know, don't say it, "you'll hear it", right? But I don't know what I can't hear, or I can't hear what isn't there. I need a "de-frustration" plug-in! Ah hem, thanks.
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Trust me man, it get's easier to grasp, as you gain experience.

You have been given great info already. I will add however, that I have not touched the Cubase compressor in two years, after upgrading to a much better one. An expensive Waves API2500 to be exact. There is a free one called Density MKIII, that gives much better result than the Cubase comp IMO. It does not use typical designation of threshold/ratio numbers, but that may help you to actually hear what is going on, as opposed to relating compression in a mathematical way. I always found the Cubase comp to be crappy sounding, for anything other than low ratios. I found for myself, that listening to a compressor with some character, helped me to hear what it is really doing.

Just an option. :)
 
Jeremy Muller said:
I know that was supposed to help, but that just raised about 20 more questions.
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Sorry, I wasn't as clear as I should have been. I meant adjust the volume of the kick and bass so the lows of both mesh properly, then eq the highs of the kick so it cuts through the mix better.

You have to learn to focus on one frequency range in two instruments at the same time while ignoring other frequency ranges, and then you have to change your focus to another frequency range and compare to the rest of the mix.

A lot of mixing is learning how to listen in different and sometimes counter-intuitive ways.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
You have to learn to focus on one frequency range in two instruments at the same time while ignoring other frequency ranges, and then you have to change your focus to another frequency range and compare to the rest of the mix.
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If there was a way to make this quote a 'sticky', I would. :)
 
Okay. Bouldersoundguy, thanks. That does help. To Jimmys69, that downloadable compressor sounds like a great idea. Once I download it, how do I connect it, or get it to work with my Cubase. I ain't so great on the tech side, but I'd like to try this. Thanks.
 
Jeremy Muller said:
Okay. Bouldersoundguy, thanks. That does help. To Jimmys69, that downloadable compressor sounds like a great idea. Once I download it, how do I connect it, or get it to work with my Cubase. I ain't so great on the tech side, but I'd like to try this. Thanks.
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Download, the installer. I think you may need to just copy the .dll file to the VST Plugins folder. I don't remember exactly, but that is an issue sometimes with free plugins. Sometimes, they don't automatically install into the correct folder. This is an easy thing to help you with, if it does not just work by running the install program, after downloading.
 
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