compression, effects...tracking or editing?

W

willow

New member
i know this might be objective, but when should i add compression, while tracking or afterwards? is it the same for different instruments?

i will be starting with drums. for a noob engineer, what kind of "rules of thumb" should i start with as far as compression?

and other effects? is there certain ones that should be done at the recording stage?

yes, i do searches, but usually just find stuff that is written with the assumption that the reader already knows certain things, so i will ask for this info in easy to understand answers. :)

thanks guys

(btw, i am using sonar 4 prod)
 
Generally, you should only track with effects where the manipulation of the signal is necessary for the artist to perform properly - such as delay, flange, or distortion. There are some exceptions, but usually the person who applies the effect during tracking knows exactly what he is doing and what sound he is going for.

If you are unfamiliar with compression, I highly recommend you do not use it when tracking instruments.
 
I would second what Cy says. I track with a small amount of compression on my vox, because I suck badly at vocals. I do this because I lose too many decent vocal tracks due to getting loud. If you have decent technique, you won't have this problem. It's something that can't be undone later. If you can track it cleanly, do that, then apply effects later. That way, if it just doesn't sound good, you can try with a different setting, and not affect teh original.
 
Dogman said:
I would second what Cy says. I track with a small amount of compression on my vox, because I suck badly at vocals. I do this because I lose too many decent vocal tracks due to getting loud. If you have decent technique, you won't have this problem.
Click to expand...


Actually it's not always the engineer's fault. It's usual a question of if the PERFORMER has decent technique (along with the engineer). Sometimes if a singer starts bustin' out, clipping in inevitable, unless you use a tiny amount of compression while tracking. I usually set my threshold so that there is no reduction unless the singer really starts belting it out. As usual, play around with it. You find what suits you.
 
Mixxit12 said:
Actually it's not always the engineer's fault. It's usual a question of if the PERFORMER has decent technique (along with the engineer). Sometimes if a singer starts bustin' out, clipping in inevitable, unless you use a tiny amount of compression while tracking. I usually set my threshold so that there is no reduction unless the singer really starts belting it out. As usual, play around with it. You find what suits you.
Click to expand...
Actually, what I was saying is, I can't sing, so I wind up getting louder than I should. :o
I am tracking myself, and sometimes get loud enough to clip, and use a small amount of compression to try to keep from clipping.
 
Typically, I would track without compression. Set your levels properly and it will NEVER be NEEDED during tracking. However, with people typically using DAW's now and mixing in the box, this has to be rethought a little. If you only have one or two comps that are outboard and want to impart their character to a track, you may have to use them on the way in. Also, if you are mixing in the analog domain, you may have to track with some on the way in due to the physical limitations of your amount of compressors come mixdown.
 
From the old school general rule is: Dynamic effects go to tape.
Modulation during mix

However, you don't have to follow this of course like anything in recording. You've got to look at it like this though. Dynamic ( comp, limiter, gate, etc) all control some type or form of volume, which is why they are typically applied going to tape. They are controlling the volume in one way or another to get a good strong but not over bearing signal to tape. Modulation (chorus, flange, delay, reverb) are basically special effects. If you record with them you are stuck with them on tape and they no matter what you do cannot be removed without retracking.


For compression, I would say don't rely on it soley in tracking. But use it as necassary like with anything. Most people say always compress drums, I don't unless you've got a drummer that can't restrain themself or if they're dynamically all over the place. I've noticed though that the more from loud to soft or vice versa the more you will look to a compressor just to keep the dynamic changes in check. I didn't use any compression at all on the heaviest of metal drummers and never clipped once.

It's really important to get a good clean signal, so if you need a compressor then use it. Sometimes a carefully set gate can help tighten up a drumset. Of if the use calls for it.

Also keep in mind a hot signal (specifically in the digital world) can be a little tough to control after the fact. For example I additivly EQ a guitar by just a few db in the low mid and then a bit in the high mid section and for the volume I was running it caused it to bump it just a bit to high, so through some slight compression on it after the fact so it helps keep it control by just a few db.
 
killmachine said:
From the old school general rule is: Dynamic effects go to tape.
Modulation during mix
Click to expand...

Yes, but the old school didn't have plugins, only hardware, and since dynamics go on inserts, and modulation on an aux buss, it was a matter of practicality to compress on the way in..... unless your desk had Valley People Dynamites fitted on each CS.
Still, if you have a HW compressor that sounds better than your SW compressors, there's no reason not to use it during tracking as long as you don't overcompress. But do it because you like that compressor, not because you need to control the level. For that you should learn to sing more evenly, set your levels with more headroom, and back off from the mic the mic on loud parts.
 
Alot of good advice, alot of comflicting advice lol, but alot of good advice.

What I am saying is that there is no ONE RIGHT WAY to record. As little as 12-15 years ago (even though it seems like forever) most producers didn't have plug-ins to work with and almost all compression was done during tracking. most of the time saving modulation effects for the mixdown (usually from one multi-track tape machine, into the console, effects inserted on whatever channels, out of the console, and into another multi-track tape machine, "man I don't miss those days, THANK YOU TECHNOLOGY!! lol")

I would recommend recording a track just to mutilate inside the computer. Track something and just play with it, try every plug in you have. Then compare that to using whatever hardware compressors you have during tracking. See which way works best for you.

I will also add that if you only have cheap outboard compressors you have to take that into consideration. Most times a plug in may sound better than a behringer autocom pro or something like that.
If you have nice compressors outboard, I will say that I ALWAYS compress kick, snare, toms, vocals, and sometimes bass guitar during tracking. However I use very little compression on most things. I have DBX160's, presonus acp-88, aphex compellor's, aphex expressor's, ashly cl-100's, and I'm saving up for an 1176. I usually do not compress guitar's and NEVER compress overhead's. Once in a great while I will use compression on electric guitars during mixdown but have not felt the need in several years (maybe I finally figured out how to record them correctly lol) I will say though use very little compression and EQ, but try your best to get the initial tracks to sound the way you want them to sound in the endall. If you track the instruments the way you want them to come out in the end, you will just make the mixing process less painful. I use very little processing when I mix because usually the tracks sound the way I want them to already. The more you find yourself "fixing it in the mix" the more you should rethink your tracking techniques.

In the old days there was no "fix it in the mix" They didn't have multi-tracks in the 50's. Some of the best recordings ever were recorded live in one room while mixing on the fly. As I said before "wahoo for technology!!!"

The one thing I will never record during tracking is reverb. I don't care how much the musician fights me (I may plug a reverb into his headphone mix) but I NEVER track with reverb, chorus, or delay. Once in a while, and I'm guilty of this myself, The song is actually written around a sound that includes delays and flangers and the such. In those cases it just has to be tracked that way. But that is the only exception. The best advice I ever got from a famous engineer/producer is "track it the way you want it to sound in the end" The second best advice I ever got was "if the mix isn't happening, take all the crap of it, remove ALL the effects and plug-ins, most the time you find that if you recorded the tracks right they will not need alot of processing or plug-ins" It is very true, and has helped me alot.

I mentioned EQ earlier and wanted to say something I feel is VERY important.
ONLY CUT, NEVER BOOST!
if you want a more "scooped" sound then cut the mid's don't try boosting the highs and lows. You will only add more noise, think about this for a second "you cannot add something that doesn't exist" I have found that boosting EQ only makes the end result sound terrible. It may sound great while tracking with that electric guitar screaming right in your face after you boost 7k 4db and it may feel like the guitar is rattling your soul after boosting 80hz 5db, but truth be told when you get to mixdown the guitars will sound like hissy mud usually. Carve out the sound you want bye cutting all the crap you don't want. As a side note I always put a low cut on everything that doesn't actually register in the lower frequencies (ala. vocals, guitars etc.) The only thing that should be seen on a spectral analyzer below 80hz is the kick drum ;)

To sum up: if you have good compressors try using light compression during tracking, try using subtractive EQ during tracking, and wait for mixdown to use modulation effects.
I hope this helps a little, keep experimenting! and always remember to have fun!
 
I mentioned EQ earlier and wanted to say something I feel is VERY important.
ONLY CUT, NEVER BOOST!
if you want a more "scooped" sound then cut the mid's don't try boosting the highs and lows. You will only add more noise, think about this for a second "you cannot add something that doesn't exist" I have found that boosting EQ only makes the end result sound terrible. It may sound great while tracking with that electric guitar screaming right in your face after you boost 7k 4db and it may feel like the guitar is rattling your soul after boosting 80hz 5db, but truth be told when you get to mixdown the guitars will sound like hissy mud usually. Carve out the sound you want bye cutting all the crap you don't want. As a side note I always put a low cut on everything that doesn't actually register in the lower frequencies (ala. vocals, guitars etc.) The only thing that should be seen on a spectral analyzer below 80hz is the kick drum ;)



That's a good way of thinking, I totally agree with the LOW CUT prospect. However, I don't think it's an issue of that a certain frequencies being not present. More so a matter of certain frequencies being enhanced or left dull. Listening enviroment, the room itself, the mic, the instrument, all play a part in what will come through and at what level.

Back to the compression isssue:

It's really all dependant on the dynamics of the istrument and the player. Chances are if need to compress the hell out of it after the fact you tracked it to hot to begin with. That's my impression on that.
 
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Actually, even in the all analog days, alot of people still track without compressions. There are a couple of different styles of doing things. The fact that compressors use inserts really has nothing to do with needing to use them during tracking. When in the analog domain, what does affect things is how many compressors of what type you have, and how many console channels for mixdown or how many tape channels have to be bounced together during the mix. If you have plenty of channels and outboard comps, then it is not necessary to use them during tracking. In fact, if you are lucky enough to be set up like this, it is best to wait until mixdown to use them.

Different people also like to compress things differently as well. Personally, I never track kick, snare, or toms with compression. I also will frequently compress my overheads and/or room mic. What I do compress is the 2 buss drum master. I find that grouping just the kick, snare and toms (no OH's and room mics) together and putting a 2 buss compressor on those works much better than individually compressing. I find you get a lot more punch and a more seamed together drum sound. Especially when dealing with most rock drummers, and in specific more of the newer style and when going for the "modern" drum sound which so many people want.

As far as EQ goes, we all know that EQ cuts are better for sonic integrity. However, of all the great engineers that I know and have met, not a single one of them is at all hesitant to do whatever they need with EQ to get their end result. There is nothing wrong with making a boost on an EQ. Just make sure you know what you are doing and are thinking about how what you are doing will affect other things in the mix. I certainly agree that if you want to scoop the mids out that you are generally much better off lowering the mids as opposed to just boosting around them. But, making a boost is not trying to create something that was never there to begin with. When you make a boost on an EQ it is to accentuate what was already there. Boosting an EQ does not mean you will suddenly have hiss, or that suddenyl your guitar will sound like mud. I guess this would be true if your EQ was something like a Behringer or a Mackie. Eq's in console like that certainly have a much higher noise floor and don't have as tight and pleasing of a sound, but that is a function (or disfunction if you will) of the gear, and not of the nature of EQ'ing. In fact, good EQ's are one of the major things that really helps a pro's mix stand apart from so many others. With a good EQ you get a lot of freedom to do what you want and need to do without having to worry nearly as much about the negative aspects of what you just did.

In the end, there are just a couple of major schools of though concerning the overall recording process. Some people do not like to EQ, comp or anything on the way in and say leave it all flat until mixdown. This is the safe approach. This works great for certain genres of music, or for the person who is lucky enough to be recording an awesome band in an awesome room, with incredible gear that facilitates still being able to do what they want during mixdown. There are also those people who say go ahead and make a commitment to your music and track they way you want them to be during mixdown. In order to fully utilize this approach, you must be confident in your judgement and your equipment. This approach usually requires much more experience to pull off properly. Decisions are made and commited before the big picture has been fully assembled. Basically, this is usually a producer or engineer who has been hired by the performers because of that engineers style and vision. Then there are a lot of people who fall half way inbetween and do a little of both. Ther are also people who believe that everything needs to be tracked clean and captured exactly how it is. Once again, this is great for certain genres, but for a large bulk of performances this approach does not work well. I personally do not care for this one....

Ask yourself this... When was the last time you recorded a full band say that you want to sound exactly how they do in real life? Those acts are few and far between. Most bands even know that they want to sweeten things up a bit. This is why they have come to the studio and picked some specific engineer. There are a lot of amazing groups out there that still get "processed" in some way shape or form by the studio and its engineers. This is not a bad thing. It is still a part of the creative process.
 
xstatic said:
Actually, even in the all analog days, alot of people still track without compressions. There are a couple of different styles of doing things. The fact that compressors use inserts really has nothing to do with needing to use them during tracking. When in the analog domain, what does affect things is how many compressors of what type you have, and how many console channels for mixdown or how many tape channels have to be bounced together during the mix. If you have plenty of channels and outboard comps, then it is not necessary to use them during tracking. In fact, if you are lucky enough to be set up like this, it is best to wait until mixdown to use them.

Different people also like to compress things differently as well. Personally, I never track kick, snare, or toms with compression. I also will frequently compress my overheads and/or room mic. What I do compress is the 2 buss drum master. I find that grouping just the kick, snare and toms (no OH's and room mics) together and putting a 2 buss compressor on those works much better than individually compressing. I find you get a lot more punch and a more seamed together drum sound. Especially when dealing with most rock drummers, and in specific more of the newer style and when going for the "modern" drum sound which so many people want.

As far as EQ goes, we all know that EQ cuts are better for sonic integrity. However, of all the great engineers that I know and have met, not a single one of them is at all hesitant to do whatever they need with EQ to get their end result. There is nothing wrong with making a boost on an EQ. Just make sure you know what you are doing and are thinking about how what you are doing will affect other things in the mix. I certainly agree that if you want to scoop the mids out that you are generally much better off lowering the mids as opposed to just boosting around them. But, making a boost is not trying to create something that was never there to begin with. When you make a boost on an EQ it is to accentuate what was already there. Boosting an EQ does not mean you will suddenly have hiss, or that suddenyl your guitar will sound like mud. I guess this would be true if your EQ was something like a Behringer or a Mackie. Eq's in console like that certainly have a much higher noise floor and don't have as tight and pleasing of a sound, but that is a function (or disfunction if you will) of the gear, and not of the nature of EQ'ing. In fact, good EQ's are one of the major things that really helps a pro's mix stand apart from so many others. With a good EQ you get a lot of freedom to do what you want and need to do without having to worry nearly as much about the negative aspects of what you just did.

In the end, there are just a couple of major schools of though concerning the overall recording process. Some people do not like to EQ, comp or anything on the way in and say leave it all flat until mixdown. This is the safe approach. This works great for certain genres of music, or for the person who is lucky enough to be recording an awesome band in an awesome room, with incredible gear that facilitates still being able to do what they want during mixdown. There are also those people who say go ahead and make a commitment to your music and track they way you want them to be during mixdown. In order to fully utilize this approach, you must be confident in your judgement and your equipment. This approach usually requires much more experience to pull off properly. Decisions are made and commited before the big picture has been fully assembled. Basically, this is usually a producer or engineer who has been hired by the performers because of that engineers style and vision. Then there are a lot of people who fall half way inbetween and do a little of both. Ther are also people who believe that everything needs to be tracked clean and captured exactly how it is. Once again, this is great for certain genres, but for a large bulk of performances this approach does not work well. I personally do not care for this one....

Ask yourself this... When was the last time you recorded a full band say that you want to sound exactly how they do in real life? Those acts are few and far between. Most bands even know that they want to sweeten things up a bit. This is why they have come to the studio and picked some specific engineer. There are a lot of amazing groups out there that still get "processed" in some way shape or form by the studio and its engineers. This is not a bad thing. It is still a part of the creative process.
Click to expand...

Some good points, I was trying to give more "beginner" type advice considering the original question however. Yes I do boost Eq while tracking/mixing on occasion. Also I do sub-group my drum tracks and put a good compressor on the stereo bus during mixdown. I was however trying to simplify my reply considering the "beginner" status of the question. Sometimes it is difficult to give the appropriate answer without knowing what gear the person who posted the question is actually using. I have a feeling though, that the poster does not have a 48 channel Neve with a rack full of LA-2A's and 1176's going to a Studer 2" machine. With that in mind, this is why I gave the reply that I gave. I was hoping to give some "safe mode" tips to get them started. I did not take offense to your post at all just wanted to clarify why I gave the response I did. I agree with most of your post.

P.S. I own many Eq's but the ones I mainly use are:
White 4100
White 4220 (x2)
Orban 622A+622B
I must admit I like my TOA 900 series graphic on some thing's too. lol.
I would NEVER own a behringer :P
 
I think the best advice for beginners is to save it all for mixdown until they are comfortable making processing decisions in advance. Also, I hate hearing everyone talking nowadays about comping channels to keep the peaks down and to track a hotter level. If your gain staging is proper, there is absolutely no need to do this.
 
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