Composing Drums

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GazEcc

GazEcc

mBallstát atá tiomanta
Hey Everyone,
I was wondering about how you all tackle writing drum lines, and beats for your tracks, I've tried writing midi files start to finish and playing them through EZDrummer and its just a pain I have to be honest, and on top of that they always sound boring, repetitive and uninspired, I'm no drummer but I'd love to be able to write for drums that could at least pass as mediocre on my tracks, any advice on breaking up the beats to make them sound more .. you know, a-drummer-done-this-ey.
 
What genre are you playing?

In general there are many ways to spice up a drum line: hold back the kick or snare for a measure or two, do some tricky hi-hat work, pause the drums completely for a beat or two, go double-time or half-time, try out different fills, experiment with closed hi-hat vs. open hi-hat vs. crash cymbal vs. ride cymbal vs. low tom for keeping time, hit the snare and low tom together on a single beat, the list goes on and on.

If you could post a MIDI file of what you think is a "boring" track, maybe I can take it and add some things to it that you could model in the future. It always helps to know how to play a real kit, so if you ever get a chance you might want to take some lessons or at least fool around on a kit and get a feel for what is possible.
 
ah I cover Rock, Blues, Punk and Traditional Irish / Folk Music mostly and I have a kit yet still midi has no breathing room in my eyes, I tried micing the kit but its just really a starter kit and my cymbals leave a lot to be desired. but sure I have a piece in mind I'm working on drums for when I get it done I'll post it is there a preferred hosting site for files on this board or can I just use rapidshare / quickshareit ?
 
I will say that, I know very little but a few things I keep in mind are: first, the volume is very important (one and three are accented with the three being a bit lower but still higher then the second beat for the kick..in 4/4...) getting the right volume helps to start to give the beat a feel. Second, in a lot of music with drums there are three levels and pulses...kick (bass), snare (mid), hats (high)..they work together to create a groove....ussally, the kick has a pluse that is centerd around the first and thrid beat..the snare is about the backbeat, two and four...and the hats are about the all t.....I have t0 stop at this moment peeace
 
Have a listen to some of Chili's stuff. Personally, I think the EZ drum type drums that he uses sound really good and to be honest, unless one continues to be rather, well, anal, about it, they are not going to detract from the quality of his tunes.
That said, and kind of as a side issue, I'm fortunate to have a drumkit and to have buddies that are drummers. Also on this site, there are some drummers that also are actually multi instrumentalists and, in my opinion, extremely memorable and potent songwriters and recordists (Rami, Supercreep, Dintymoore and Poetic Intensity immediately spring to mind but there are quite a few others). Listen closely to some of their stuff, both songwise and drum wise.
I record with drums and for me, the drums have long been more than just the beat or time. They are a multidimensional musical instrument and their place within a song can be just as crucial as any other part you care to name. Over the years, I've thought very specifically about drum parts and I've often driven my friends to distraction trying to explain what I want in a song. Sometimes I'm very specific about the exact pattern, other times as I'm showing them the song, I'll give them a psuedo pattern but leave it to them as long as they approximate the feel I'm looking for.
It is worth listening to some 90s R&B, just around the time "drum programming" became ubiquitous on the back of album sleeves and drummers became kind of {sadly in my opinion} redundant in soul. Hip hop/rap/jungle also gives a good idea of how non acoustic drums are used to create fundemental drumming figures within songs. I personally feel that a real human being playing the drums will give you the best indication of how to 'think' like a drummer, though. Listen to as many as you can, greats and those not regarded as greats. Alot of what the drummers in Irish folk~rock were doing in that 70s/80s period for example, is deceptively simple, yet with enough delicate frills and ever so effective.
Final point ~ in a thread on mixing that appeared in the summer, Kcearl made what I thought was a very interesting point about many of the songs that he heard in the MP3 clinic. He felt that drums weren't given a higher enough priority with alot of home recorders and whatever one's view on that, I think it merits some serious thought.
 
Hey all and a merry christmas to yee,
I love the joy of recording an acoustic kit and have one myself but I've moved to a flat in Dublin-land making the whole recording thing a bit of a pain and limiting me to guitars-sans-noise let alone a full kit, but when I started my account on this forum I also made the decision to set up my studio in my mums house full time. Is there a solution thats any easier than typing each midi note in one by one though? I mean i guess i could use my keyboard and type the drum beats that way and quantize but i never really tried it that way, what do you guys do when the drummer has done a runner?
 
I was a real drummer when younger, after a long musical hiatus, i came back in computer composing.

I basically try to program a drum track like I would play it (or, like I would want to play it, lol) Sometimes I like the soft "boom-chik, boom-chik" really basic sound, like on a soft slow thing... sometimes I get anal and go back and score the whole drum line.

one major problem I hear a lot, is non-drummers forget that drummers have 2 hands and 2 feet, IE, you have to watch you dont have him doing something impossible, like, hitting 3 things at once. Or, when they hit the wrong thing with the wrong hand. heck, I'm a drummer myself... and I will sit there going "what IS it with this?" then I will find it, LMAO.

non musicians pick up on this without realizing it, let alone musicians, and dont even think about fooling a real drummer listening for quite some time, LMAo (though I myself wonder when listening to the radio, so, it happens)

listen top a real drummer playing by himself. Close your eyes, and stand in front of the set. What do your ears tell you? That the right and left panning of all the individual instruments is noticeable. When you back up, the panning gets closer together. People want to push the drums "back" in the mix with just simple reverb, but leave it panned like its up close. or vice versa.

a real live drummer has a subtle difference between his right hand and his left hand... you approximate this digitally with volume differences and a SLIGHT panning to the right and left hits on drum heads.

One thing i can not duplicate even remotely myself is what I was known for... intimate complicated hi-hat beats. not just open or closed, but... I was hitting sometimes AS it closed or opened, making unique sounds.

non-drummers scoring digital drum lines use, like 2 or 3 "rudiments" and forgbet the rest. Mere striking an instrument of the drum kit is a single rudiment!!! There are 52 distinct rudiments to a true percussionist. I myself a real drummer have often forgotten this, and you should look up the OTHER 51 rudiments and practice programmign them. may I suggest a f-a-s-t para-para-diddle ??? (R R L L R L) starting first only on snare, then the Rs and Ls start moving to other drum heads? (produces the fast razmatazz riff sound)

The rap age left us with drumming as just "eh, a beat timing thingy" and its almost all simple 4-4 stuff. yeah, its boring after a while. Theres more than just a "ONE two THREE four" or a "1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 4 e & a" beat we all hear...

good drummers, even those that dont do fast slick double bass and roll solos... will move those 1,3 accents ahead of the beat and behind the beat seamlessly. or, play in 5/4 time when the song is 4/4 so the beat is dead nuts ON, but seems to be moving and shifting yet still is locked in.

Just like a guitar player can shift to a relative key? he still in tune, but its interesting? Drummers cant change key so we do it in timing and accents.

recording live drums can be a real bear. Mainly cymbals, but, the heads too. Zildjian turkish had long slow decays, sounded great live or on stage. for recording? paiste and fast decay and more small splash cymbals. You really needtwo whole sets, completely different from heads to cymbals and even stick types.

Good drummers have a sense of rhythm that most guitarists and singers cant really fathom. When guitarists start to songwrite and compose, they just want a live metronome a lot of times, LMAO. Consider writing a song, even a soft slow one in ANY time signature other than 4/4 time. The human brain is hearing and expecting a series of 4s, 8s, and 16s... they HEAR that in a 5/4 time, but, its really NOVEL to them and they dont know WHY.

The average non musician KNOWS what 4-4 "simple time" is, even if they have no knowledge of time signatures whatsoever. When you hear someone say "a really well written song can fool the listener into not knowing what the correct time signature is?" THATS how they do it. not that the whole song needs to be a "solo" like dream theatre did it, but... they would use 7/8 and 5/8 measures all thru it.

when you first experiment with 5/8? where to put the accents, eh? you have CHOICES now, flavors!

accents on the 1,3,5... 1,5... 3,5... soft 1 and hard 2345... get the idea? The listener HEARS teh 4/4 time, but, is constantly hearing "novel" accents as they THINK its in 4/4 time...

theres SO much more to a good percussionist than just being a live metronome, or to playing fast double bass and slick rolls all night long.

*LOOK UP THE 52 RUDIMENTS* ----- *lOOK UP 5/4 AND 7/8 TIME SIGNATURES*
 
GazEcc said:
Is there a solution thats any easier than typing each midi note in one by one though? I mean i guess i could use my keyboard and type the drum beats that way and quantize but i never really tried it that way, what do you guys do when the drummer has done a runner?
Click to expand...

The easiest thing to use would be either a MIDI keyboard, an MPD-like thing, or an electric drum kit hooked up via MIDI. I tend to use an electric drum kit via MIDI because it replicates the feel of playing on a real mic'd kit the best. However, if you don't know how to drum well then that can be just as hard as drawing in each MIDI note.

If you want to give the MIDI drum kit a try but don't have the money for a full electric kit, check out some of Yamaha's mini electric drums. They work great: DD/YDD Drums - Portable Digital Drums - Yamaha - United States
 
Well here's what I'm doing, but take into consideration I am a complete noob and an awful drummer to boot.

I have a kit in the basement, it is nothing to write home about but it is a real kit. I find sitting at the kit and noodling around to be the best way to get a "human" drum arrangement to whatever song I'm working on, rather than going at it mathematically. I've demo'd various drum software and while some of it sounds quite good, it just never sounds like "me" to me.

So here is the technique I am working with at the moment.

First I'll sit at the kit and just noodle around with the song in my head, trying different things. The thing is I'm awful, as previously mentioned, so I'm just trying to get the basic idea down at this point. And I'm just playing along to music in my head - so if I lose the tempo it's OK, I'm just trying to get a feel for what would sound right.

Once I have something I like and that seems to have potential, then I start deconstructing it.

First, the basic beat - often comprised of the kick / snare combo -- I'll record that and that alone, not touching any other drums, along to my click track. Then I go into the recording and doctor it up a bit (e.g. quantize it). Usually there is a verse, chorus, and bridge that needs to be made, sometimes an intro or and outry, and almost always some variation between them, even if you're just playing two drums.

Next, any kind of additional embellishment, say a ride cymbal or tom work gets the same treatment and added in as another track in the project.

Next, fills, again recorded to the same click track. I'll just record a bunch of different fills and pepper them into the song where they fit best.

Lastly I record a few splashes & crashes all alone and really letting them sustain out. These also just get peppered in where needed.

I'll do an entire audacity project just for the drum build, throwing in a junk guitar and/or vocal track just to keep track of where I am in the song, then mix that down to a single .wav file to be imported to another audacity project where I overlay "good" vox, guitar, bass, etc tracks. If I ever need to tweak something in the drums I can go back to the drum build project, tweak the individual bit, and re-mix the .wav.

Though I am terrible at actually playing the drums, I can usually sort of play some kind of semi-interesting beat. The thing is I can't sustain it in any way "live". This method of multi-track recording and overlaying allows me to be a way better drummer than I actually am through, basically, studio trickery, while it still being "me" playing the drums instead of resorting to software, MIDI, etc.

This also has a benefit of minimizing the chance of doing what SEDstar mentions above - playing too many things at once, or with the wrong hand, etc. There's still a chance of doing that, but it is less likely since you're really reconstructing the arrangement you were actually playing at the beginning of it all.

Again I'm a total noob but it's some ideas anyway.
 
folks, I really appreciate all the input i'm taking it in and learning, I've had such a strong urge to set my old kit back up some new skins try steal back some of the hardware that was 'misplaced' and get a decent set of cymbals. I used to love playing a live kit but i'm a sod for loosing things :P so one stick here a cymbal there its a lot of upkeep :P
 
GazEcc said:
ah I cover Rock, Blues, Punk and Traditional Irish / Folk Music mostly and I have a kit yet still midi has no breathing room in my eyes, I tried micing the kit but its just really a starter kit and my cymbals leave a lot to be desired. but sure I have a piece in mind I'm working on drums for when I get it done I'll post it is there a preferred hosting site for files on this board or can I just use rapidshare / quickshareit ?
Click to expand...

Are you still planning on posting the files?
 
I will bud, its just a matter of time, I'm getting screwed over in my job at the minute and bills aren't exactly my favourite hobby :( Sorry about the delay.
 
Hi Gaz,

Generally I hear the kick beat when I run through the song in my head and build the beat from there. I'm a MacBook user too and used to be Cubase based however I started messing around with Garageband and the built in drum loops (audio & midi) helped to fix a lot of my drum problems.

Try this: Set up a software instrument track in Garageband and drag some of the midi loops (the green ones) from the library on to it. This will give you various kits with correct levels and balance. Then you can reconstruct the beats within the loops as you wish to see what works.

If you want to stay with Cubase you can export your new loops as audio using the "bounce" option under file and import into Cubase.
 
I think you might want to check out some of the books out there about Grooves.

basically you can do number of things that would give more feeling to your track :
1. Groove : grooving means to play with accents and beats and meter, fun subject I would advise anyone to learn it even if they hat drums because actually this is for any musician.
quantize less or use iterative quantize or whatever they call it on your program.
2. Poly rhythms - these are mixed rhythms - African drummers are great at this stuff.
3. all the instrument around the drums can make the difference, always remember that, harmonic rhythm or dragging the rhythm with the bass will change how your mind perceive the drums.

here you can find more books : So what should we study ??? « Music – DM
good luck.
 
The whole grove thing seems to be what I was looking for in the first place :D but I've just been focusing on filling up parts to suit the mix as basic a beat as I can manage :). Doing ok but i'll use the technique in later pieces :D
 
GazEcc said:
Hey guitarplayer82 I've got a midi drum beat from a song I'm working on for my gf its basically a 3 chord piece (Verse- E, E7, A, E x2:: Chorus D, A , E, E7, D, A, E, E7) have a listen see what you think :)

http://b2.s3.p.quickshareit.com/files/drumsmysweetdublindarling808ab.mid
Click to expand...

I changed up the first two sections of the song and added in some fills and other things to represent how I would approach the drum beat. Since I don't know the context of the song that the beat falls into, my new drum beat might not exactly match up with how you imagined it to fit in with the other instruments. But anyways, I tried to keep it interesting, but also simple and realistic. I uploaded a MIDI file and a bounce of the audio in case your MIDI drum kit doesn't read the notes the same way mine does.

http://b1.s3.p.quickshareit.com/files/drums029db.zip
 
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