Complex Space/Limited Equipment... HELP!!!

[besideyouintim3]

So this weekend I started helping a friend of mine record his bands demo up at their cabin. Had OK results considering the circumstances.

The space is small... I'd estimate about 15'/20' x 30'/35'. One of the longer sides has two rooms attached to it. A very small kitchen at one end and a very small sitting area at the other. the ceilings are very tall and come to a point, with a loft suspended over the kitchen/sitting room. I know the description isn't the best, but it'll do.

As far as my equipment is concerned....
I am running through a macbook pro with an M-Audio Fast track interface that I borrowed from a friend... only 8 mic inputs.
-4 SM57's
-1 Beta 52a
-1 Blue Spark (cardioid condenser, side address)
-2 Cheaper Shure microphones that somewhat resemble SM58's
-AND last but not least... a 500$ budget

The band consists of..
-1 singer/electric acoustic guitar (2 separate amps)
-1 electric Lead guitar
-1 drummer (full kit)
-1 bass
-there are also random percussionists and a tuba player occasionally, but i wouldn't worry about that right now

The lead guitarist kind of runs the band, and he is really looking for the most natural sound possible. they play a lot of 60's-esque psychedelic music

 

[Dags]

So...what's the question?

Sounds like a lovely place to record, by the way!

 

[besideyouintim3]

good point ... got caught up giving all of the information that i usually see people asking for haha.. Although i have probably close to an infinite amount of questions.. I'll start simple.... My budget is actually a little bit more than $500, and I don't know where to go from here microphone-wise... Do you have any suggestions as to microphones I should have. I was thinking a nice boundary microphone strapped to a piece of plexiglass hung from the ceiling (or another cool place in the cabin) would give the effect that the band is looking for, but I'm sure there are probably better alternatives.

I'm thinking of using a room mic (maybe the boundary) as the main source, close miking everything, and slightly blending in the close mic signals (being that they want a very natural live sound and I'm not getting that from close miking alone). Would I be better off using an A/B or X/Y stereo technique?

 

[besideyouintim3]

and it is by the way!!! which is why I'm going out of my mind trying to capture the vibes of this place!!!!

 

[besideyouintim3]

i'd say one of the more annoying problems I'm having is capturing the drums right... I don't have much experience miking a drum set, so I'm having a hard time setting the mics and getting the hell out of the way. I feel like what I really need is a full day or two with the drummer to just have him play and move things around... but with work and "life", that is not going to happen soon. We are on a tight schedule only recording there on weekends, so any suggestions on drum miking would help too. I feel like less is more, being that they want roomy, very natural sounding drums

 

[Siessi]

The first thing that comes to my mind is whether you also have time concerns. If time is an issue then it might be better to try to track the whole band live.

There are some pretty good methods of tracking drums with 3 or even 2 mics leaving the other inputs for the rest of the instruments. But like everything there are advantages and disadvantages to doing this, but that's the case for everything. For example, tracking the whole thing live makes for a much quicker process but then the band absolutley must be tight and able to play all songs cleanly in one take which means that the least skilled muso will be the weak link in the chain and if he/she keeps stuffing things up then frustration can quickly arise.

The other main method is to track the drums first using all mics and inputs. This gives you much better control over the mix and I'm sure many here would agree that having all the drums 'in the can' usually makes for a much smoother and more enjoyable process but of course it takes much more time to do. Personally I really believe that ten minutes of preparation is usually worth an hour of work later on.

After the drums are done then the rest of the instruments (usually bass first and then the others) can be tracked at your leisure giving you tons of control over both the tracking and mixing.

I'd also be tempted to use the various rooms as iso booths for the amps. When done right the separation that can be achieved can be well worth it.

Finally I can't overstate the importance of regular breaks and rest. Almost all recording projects get a little tense now and then, especially if there's one person who 'kinda runs the band' and it's the engineer/producer's job to play mentor as well.

I hope I've been able to help at least a bit and I'd love to hear the results...Good Luck!

 

[mjbphotos]

That's actually a decent size room to work with, but the room itself, no matter what 'vibe' you are trying to capture is going to make or break the sound. Reflections, bass build-up in the corners, bleed from every mic if you try to record the band all at once .... close-mic everything and use some room mics for ambiance, if they want the 'live sound'. Then when you audition the live mix with them, turn the live mic channels all the way down - they'll probably like it better!

 

[Dags]

Are you going to record everything separately or try to capture a performance?

I was trying to picture the building and how to set up the bits of gear you need to record to get some isolation, even if the demo will be captured as a complete take without edits.
Maybe place a guitar amp in each room off to the side of the main space, the bass amp tucked away in the sitting room with some furniture between it and the drums to provide a little separation from each other.

I haven't been fortunate enough to play with boundary mics, so I can't comment on whether they will capture the sound you're after.
I do know, from listening to the work of an engineer-friend of mine, that they are brilliant for capturing the 'sound' of the room, to give some ambience to what would otherwise be your close-miced instruments.

A couple of large diaphragm condenser mics and hefty boom stands may offer more in the way of flexibility of use for future recording work - the condenser mics can be used for a variety of instruments including vocals (whereas the boundary mics are just boundary mics) and the boom stands allow you to raise the mics up into the roof space a little to capture the sound of the band in the room, if the room sounds ok to start with & not much noise from outside can reach the mics, and are always useful for any recording application.

If you are intending to have everything placed in the one room, I imagine an X-Y coincident pair raised above the main room where the band is performing will capture the 'whole' sound quite well, and will also capture the sound of the room, so be certain to turn off the fridge and any other noisy appliances when tracking!

If the band are set up as if performing on a stage, then a wide A-B setup may work, but you will need to take care with setup of the instruments and placement of the mics so that an accurate stereo image is maintained.

Obviously, if you have time to experiment with a couple of different setups, then that will give you some indication of what will sound best in the space you're working in.
I'm envious that you have the ability to take on such a wonderful project!

Dags

 

[Dags]

Re: drums - Check out the Glyn Johns method of drum micing. I have used it very successfully with a jazz drum kit and have been to a session where it was used on a rock kit with all band members & their gear set up in the one room. Loads of spill, of course, but if the band are able to play the song correctly then no need to worry about editing/overdub problems.

Dags

 

[besideyouintim3]

siessi - yea i feel ya. its a pretty tight group, 3 of them brothers, who are all very talented and schooled musicians, so i would like to give it a few more shots capturing in one take. I have recorded bands broken down into stages like that, and you're right I had a much easier time and the quality was crisper... but these guys have something special when they're all playing together, special enough for me to think that ill be disappointed if i do it any other way . You're 100 percent right about stepping in and mentoring, too. things started to get sloppy last weekend and i didn't want to insult anybody, but i stepped in and said that i thought we all needed some fresh air... and they came back in and RIPPED the next take haha. thank you so much for giving me your time!

Dags- Thank you man I am lucky to have a very talented musician friend who actually enjoys my presence haha. I would LOVE to grab a few lg dia condenser mics. probably can only afford one right now. But it would have to be a dual diaphragm, right? being that i would need the option to switch to omni. The proximity effect and side rejection of cardioid mics are killllllling me right now haha. Would you have any recommendations for a large diaphragm condenser with multiple polar patterns? I was thinking of adding an AKG C414 XL II to the mix and seeing what happens. Haven't had any experience with anything else.

Mike B - What a f****** genius idea. seriously. I did that last weekend but i know they were disappointed with the close miked stuff. It'll buy me a solid week of mixing and blending and keep them happy. cheers man.

 

[besideyouintim3]

By the way... I'm going to spread the amps out as much as possible (I'm determined to capture this live), but as far as height of the amps is concerned... floors, waist level? any suggestions? I'm going to be experimenting there almost every weekend, so eventually we'll have better equipment and more practice and sound better... but all of your advice is priceless. i'll take every minute that you can save me and be very grateful. THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH!