Compete beginner! Need help with levels when recording.

  • Thread starter Thread starter ab459
  • Start date Start date
A

ab459

New member
Hey I am sorry if this has already been posted. I've looked on as many forums as I can to try and get the answer but it all seems confusing with all the technical terms etc.

Basically I am very new to recording on a computer. I used to have an 8 track but thought it was time to invest and start making music with better equipment.

I have purchased an AKG 420 condenser mic, an apogee duet and the software I am using is Garageband.

I am having trouble with everything at the moment so I'll list all the issues.

I'm trying to record an acoustic guitar through the akg and also vocals separately. For the time being that is all I want to be able to do. Get a good clear and loud sound.

1- I can get sound through my headphones and can record but when I play the track back through the imac it is much quieter than through the headphones.

2- Whenever I turn the input level to a level where it sounds good the red peak lights come on on both the apogee and garage band.

3- I don't really understand db, I have heard to record at -6db but then that makes the recording sound even quieter when I play it back. Then when I turn up the db the red peak lights come on again!

4- When I pan the acoustic track to the left or right, the red light is pretty much always peaking on one side of the duet.


Sorry if this is mega newbie stuff. I just want a basic formula to be able to get a good sound that is the same level as every other song out there without these red lights coming on all the time and sound distortion etc.

Oh btw when I record the phantom power is turned on.


Anybody? I'd be so grateful. I've read the apogee user guide and placed the levels that are suggested on the apogee maestro mixer and still have this ongoing problem.
 
So your main complaint is that playback is too quiet?

You can add gain AFTER you've recorded the track, so no need to boost things beyond usability there. You can boost gain (volume) just for the headphones with an external headphone preamp. Most headphone outs are designed for casual listening in a semi-quiet environment, not rocking out WHILE making noise on an instrument (an AMPLIFIED instrument). So it is very likely that you'll need extra gain there, even if you are using a respectable interface. For voice, not as much of an issue, but can be. There's also software levels for the interface, make sure that you're at least past 50% there. If that's a level that you're using.

As far as actual recording levels, you want your average sound levels to appear near -18dB, maybe -12dB if you have a known source that isn't going to go crazy on you. (i.e. NOT drums). You want your PEAKS to max out at about -6dB, and definitely no higher than -3dB. As in you want some headroom in there or you'll damage the track beyond repair. Which is semi-fine for some drums as the attack is fairly short lived, but not for most everything else. If you don't have such level monitoring, which you get on most field recorders and such and you're monitoring the waveform go across the screen while recording, you want to keep it where most of your content is less than half the width of the available width. I guess height might be the better term. From the center to top, you want to keep it near the middle of there. You can ADD gain (volume) in post. Always record in 24 bit to give a little more headroom if that's an option. You can convert it in post later. And will anyway to trim and normalize and post/print/stamp/deliver whatever.

HTH
 
Hi,

You definetely don't want the red clip light coming on. It means that the incoming signal is to hot, and the result will be digital distortion, and thats never a good thing. Because you're clipping on the Apogee, you're also clipping in GB. Bring up Maestro and adjust the input gain so that you're averaging no more than -12db, with the occasional peaks up to -6db. I generally record between -18 and -12db, for my average so I have lots of headroom on each track for fx.

When recording to tape, back in the day, it was standard to record much hotter, with peaks just under 0 db, because there was a noisefloor that was heard too easily if the incoming signal wasn't loud enough to mask it. This is called SNR (Signal to Noise Ratio). It's much better with digital recording and allows for less signal when recording. The thing with tape was, that if you clipped slightly, the distortion it might not sound that bad in context, but digital distortion never sounds good, and can also manifest itself as clicks and pops in your track. no good.

So, set your levels in maestro as previously described, and you'll be sending enough signal to GB. If you're not hearing it loudly from the mac, it's because you're using the internal speakers, most likely, and the internal amp just isn't that good. Time to get a pair of powered monitors, specifically for recording. You're hearing it loudly through headphones, because the apogee is a headphone amp as well, and is sending a nice well amped signal to your headphones.

One thing though, make sure you're computer's master volume is all the way up, this might give you enough volume for what you're after. And make sure you're master fader in GB is set to 0db as well.

Cheers,
Ryan
 
shadow_7 beat me to it, but we agree on the levels. Mixed info never makes things clearer. :)
 
Absolutely watch the levels on the Apogee. That's where you're really going to get the horrid clipping if that goes red. Add this to what has been said in the last two posts.
 
What other have said already is true and helpful, but I think your real problem is in your monitoring.

First you need to establish a good recording level. I don't know what the LEDs on the Apogee mean, but I'd start with my average level about halfway up, with peaks several LEDs below the clip. Hopefully somewhere in GarageBand it gives you actual numbers for your record levels (dBFS). Your peak level on any track should always be well below 0dBFS, say -12dBFS. Think of 0dBFS like +18dBVU on an analog meter, you never want to go there. Record something like a guitar that you can hear without monitoring, and get the level figured out.

Now set your playback monitoring levels. Do not use GarageBand to set overall monitor levels. Using Maestro or the knob on the Duet, turn up the Output level until you can hear the guitar you just recorded at a good level.

Finally, set your input monitoring level. Keep the record level where you had it for the first guitar track and play along while monitoring. Adjust the monitor (not record) level of the input in Maestro Mixer for a good balance between the live and recorded guitars.

When you switch to another source, like your voice, you just set the record level to make the signal approximately -12dBFS peak, then make minor tweaks to the input monitor level if needed. Once you have several tracks down you can balance them in GarageBand. Resist the temptation to turn quiet things up. Instead, turn loud things down.
 
Resist the temptation to turn quiet things up. Instead, turn loud things down.
Click to expand...

This is HUGE! Great advice because, you may decide that all your relative volumes (of each instrument) have been balanced quite well with each other from adjustments made during tracking, and you may not want to start your mix process from scratch when you finish all your tracking. If you keep turning channels up to balance with your loudest tracks, you'll run the risk of clipping your master bus, and make some individual tracks very difficult to add eq/comp/fx to, without clipping them as well.
 
Cheers guys you've all helped a lot! Another question I have is if you set the db level to -18 on garage band will that then alter it on the apogee too? In other words are they synched with each other? if you move one does the other follow or do you set the apogee to -18 and then leave the gb level at 0db? or do you have both set to -18db?

Bouldersoundguy I think that my problem is definitely with the monitoring as the sound difference between through the headphones compared to through the imac are completely different when I get the levels so they don't peak and turn red on the apogee/gb. like when I mean quiter on the imac I don't mean because they are poor quality inbuilt speakers (which many would suggest buying studio monitors etc which I plan to do) but I mean it is significantly quiter, almost as if you have recorded your track with the input levels at like -50db lol..

Can anybody elaborate on what Bouldersoundguy is saying because I think I understand what he means with the levels but I just am so unfamiliar with computer music. An example is how the maestro has two mixer windows- one is named "apogee controller" and one is named "apogee mixer". They both seem to do the same thing but they must do different things because otherwise they wouldn't have two windows. "apogee controller" has numbers next to it that at the moment are set to 40 input and -8 output and the 'mixer' window you have the option to turn it on or off and has level options for 'input 1', 'input 2', 'from software' and 'to hardware'.

Sorry I am a newbie. But you have all been really helpful. Thank you so much.

I've tried to upload a picture of the maestro windows but it keeps saying the file type is wrong even though it is set to 60kb file size as a jpeg. I'll keep trying.
 
There's generally TWO levels to be set for any one channel of one device that is an interface. One is hardware (knob), another is software. What I tend to do is let the hardware one clip, then adjust the software one until that clipping is at or < 0dB on the software levels. Then unless there's something quirky with that particular device, I never touch the software levels again. You might need to touch it if you change mics or preamps or other things. But you basically want to eliminate the possibility of clipping with the "software" levels. Which leaves you free to select ANY of the available hardware gain levels.

If you're setting the gain in software, it's probably a software level. Not many interfaces have software options (wireless) to change the hardware configuration. At least not on the mostly < $1K per item stuff that most of us home recordists use.
 
I looked on the Apogee website and saw a photo of the Duet's Maestro setup. The "mixer" window allows you to monitor your prerecorded tracks from the computer while tracking with no latency. The way the audio is routed, the input signal is split and sent to your computer and also directly sent to the output of the duet for monitoring along with the prerecorded tracks coming from the computer.

If you not getting much latency from the Duet, then you don't need to work with the "mixer" window and will be fine just setting the levels on the "controller" window. The advantage to using it this way is you can hear an inserted reverb if you like tracking with it. But be careful that your latency isn't too bad by adding the verb, because that's gonna make it very tough to track with more than 15ms of roundtrip latency.

You can set your levels either by turning the rotary knob of the duet, or by turning the knob in the "controller" window. Make sure you're not clipping when playing/singing the loudest sections, then check GB to make sure your peaks are in the -18 to -12db range and you're set to go.

It should be noted that adjust the volume sliders in GB does nothing for setting your input levels. It's just a volume controller. It may however, I'm not sure because I don't use it, be able to set a different volume while in "armed for recording" mode. Once you disarm the track, it should return to the previous setting. This feature is in Logic, and its purpose is there if you'd like to monitor your recording input differently from what it will actually be in the mix.
 
ab459 said:
Bouldersoundguy I think that my problem is definitely with the monitoring as the sound difference between through the headphones compared to through the imac are completely different when I get the levels so they don't peak and turn red on the apogee/gb. like when I mean quiter on the imac I don't mean because they are poor quality inbuilt speakers (which many would suggest buying studio monitors etc which I plan to do) but I mean it is significantly quiter, almost as if you have recorded your track with the input levels at like -50db lol..
Click to expand...

Are the speakers connected directly to the iMac? Maybe there's something in the sound preferences pane that will turn them up. That's a fairly minor problem. Don't try to fix it with any kind of adjustment in GarageBand.

ab459 said:
Can anybody elaborate on what Bouldersoundguy is saying because I think I understand what he means with the levels but I just am so unfamiliar with computer music. An example is how the maestro has two mixer windows- one is named "apogee controller" and one is named "apogee mixer". They both seem to do the same thing but they must do different things because otherwise they wouldn't have two windows. "apogee controller" has numbers next to it that at the moment are set to 40 input and -8 output and the 'mixer' window you have the option to turn it on or off and has level options for 'input 1', 'input 2', 'from software' and 'to hardware'.
Click to expand...

The Maestro Control window is for basic input and output levels of the Duet. Use it to control the record gain and overall monitor gain. The Maestro Mixer is your monitor mixer. Use it to balance the levels of the inputs and outputs for your headphone mix during tracking.
 
In almost every situation I can think of you should not use software controls to adjust record levels. That's because most software controls control DSP (digital signal processing), and once the signal is digital it's too late to fix certain things, e.g. clipping. The Duet is a special case because the input gain (an analog stage) can be controlled by software or the big knob on the top of the unit. Use input gain to adjust your record levels and leave all other digital controls that affect record level set to 0dB (unity gain).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top