"colored" preamp under $1500

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John Mayes

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Anyone got some suggestions for a 4 channel preamp that would fall in the "colored" catagory for under $1,500? Thanks!
 
Colored 4-ch. pre for around $1500? Only thing that comes to mind off the top of my head is the Sebatron vmp4000e. Refer to the "Sytek, TLAudio 5001, opinions? Sebatron?" thread in this forum.
 
im not sure about how it colors but the focusrite 428 i think it goes for 1600
 
OK so it's 2 channel not 4 but for color I would get (but you have to wait) the Joemeek dual. I think 2 of them might be a bit over $1500. I spoke to PMI last week and they said it will be another 5 or 6 months before the new line comes out. This is the link to the old unit.
http://www.joemeek.com/joemeekvctwinq.html
 
Maybe it's not worth anything, but I would rather have 2 really excellent preamps for $1500, than 4 not so great preamps for $1500. In my own personal experience, before using really great gear, I ended up selling all the prosumer kind of stuff at a loss and bought the better stuff out of frustration later on down the road. There is a relatively new company making preamps that offer a hell of a lot of bang for the dollar, called Old School Audio. You can get into two transformer coupled preamps (read:colored) with a powered moduler rack for around $1500. The cool thing about these is that they are modular and successive preamps and additions to the powered rack will be very cost effective. Another option is to get 2 FMR RNP's (4 channels there) and make your own Sowter or Crimson based transformer boxes that run at line level and run the transformers after the preamp.

Nathan Eldred
atlasproaudio.com
 
Nathan...

Do you suppose you could elaborate or point me in the right direction for information on how to do the RNP/Transformer operation you mentioned?

Jason A.
 
Those OSA products look pretty simple in design, you would think building one would be cheaper...
 
MiXit-G said:
Those OSA products look pretty simple in design, you would think building one would be cheaper...
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It's no more simple than any other design based on a discrete opamp and transformers....such as preamps from API, John Hardy, Millennia Media STT-1. The OSA are actually the least expensive of the bunch per channel.
 
It's no more simple than any other design based on a discrete opamp and transformers
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I see...$499 US thats over $800 AUS, i can get a joe meek.
 
atlas said:
Maybe it's not worth anything, but I would rather have 2 really excellent preamps for $1500, than 4 not so great preamps for $1500.
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I agree, but that's not to say there's not a couple of excellent 4-ch. preamps for around $1500 or even under.
 
MiXit-G said:
I see...$499 US thats over $800 AUS, i can get a joe meek.
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Yeah... and you can get Cheeseburger for less than a good steak too... what's your point?
 
How do you guys rate the (discontinued) Peavey VMP-2?
Do these fall into the "not so really great" catagory?
I think you can pick up a pair of them on e-bay for this kind of price range. Reputed to have a "vintage" vibe-whatever that means! :)

Chris
 
c7sus said:
From what I have been told, there really is no comparison, and that the API stuff is where it's at.
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Can't say I've heard that from anyone.
 
c7sus said:
I'm not trying to stir shit. But it's prolly what I do best........:rolleyes:

Since we have two gentleman here that are familiar with this gear, I'm curious about API vs. OSA.

From what I have been told, there really is no comparison, and that the API stuff is where it's at. But that info came from a third-party that builds and sells gear, too. So I take it with a grain of salt and figure the guys that know can tell us how it is.
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You should take it with a grain of salt, but that goes for anything including what I tell you. Use your common sense (a.k.a. bullshit meter), and your ears and you'll be ok.

First though, a bit of history about Old School Audio, and why your to remain nameless gear manufacturer may have some unjustified dissention towards OSA. When Old School Audio and it's founder/head tech Dale Epperson started making preamps about 4 years ago or so, the preamps were essentially API's. They used actual 2520 Op Amps, and I believe different transformers than API, although the tranny's were very "API-ish". Not that the API transformers were always "brand" specific because if you do some research you'll see that API has used at least 3 transformers since it's inception starting from the days of Saul Walker. All sounded different according to people who have heard all three. The OSA's had the same circuit topology overall (a hand drawn printed circuit board works just as well as one made by a machine...look at Manley boards sometime), same PSU amperage specs I believe (currently 1.5 amps, to be upgraded very soon to 3 amps). So to say they weren't as good as an API even 4 years ago when the company was really doing nothing original other than what was really an OEM API, is a bit silly IMO, because that is exactly what they were at the time....API's. Anybody with a somewhat advanced amount of technical knowledge can look at an API schematic, get the parts together and build one. It may sound simple, but it's not. You really have to know what you are doing as a tech and designer to get everything to work together properly. It's not as complicated as many modern designs, but it works. If it ain't broke...

So let's fast forward to 2002. Dale Epperson brought on Toby Steele as head of sales. Dale's a tech, let's just say tech's are very much 'artists' in their own right, and many of them don't know a damn about marketing or sales. This is excellent for making top notch gear, bad for letting anybody other than a few friends to know about it. At that point Old School Audio really wanted to make a conscious move to separate themselves from being an API copy, to something original but at what they felt is a more competitive price point. First, they stopped using API 2520's. This was the most obvious and essential move towards the goal of creating their own identity. Dale started building his own Op Amps, we'll call it the "DE-99" based loosely on somewhere between an original 2520 and a Jensen/Hardy 990. Dale had even tried the Millennia Media 990 (FET) before he started building his own but found it too clinical for what he was going for in terms of sonic character. Dale's operational amplifier, like the Jensen/Hardy, I believe is a bipolar transistor based design rather than a FET based design. Don't ask me to explain this to you, but what I am sure of is that it's different than a FET design which is what is in the Millennia and the Forsell designs. This neither makes any of these products 'better' or 'worse', but merely different. From what I understand though, the Hardy 990 (which I guess is actually the 990 B & C [?] being the newest version, with the Dean Jensen being the 990A) is a medium point between ultra clean (M-99, Forsell F990) and very colored (original 2520).

Secondly, to differentiate themselves from API, two other mic input transformers were decided on, with completely different sonic results than the "API-ish" version. This created three distinct preamps in the Old School Audio line. First, there is the "A", which uses an Altran input transformer, the "C" which uses a Crimson input transformer (and is the one that IMO sounds like a Brent Averill 312. I haven't heard the current API 312 so I can't comment), and the "L", which uses a 1538 Lundahl input transformer. To sum it up the "A" is clean with a bright top, the "C" is mellow with a nice midrange coloration, and the "L" is bigger than life and has a nice balance between coloration and clean.

Thirdly, and this is the most recent addition from just a few months ago, the preamps now have separate control over the input and output rather than just the one knob that is found on an API. Anybody who owns a Neve 1073 or Great River NV knows the flexibility this feature can provide.

So essentially, they've differentiated themselves from API to the point where 85% of the product cannot fairly be compared from a marketing standpoint to an API of any era, vintage or modern. Visually, yes, but with the exception of the "C" model, OSA has made it a point to make their product more flexible both sonically and in function from it's beginnings. Keeping in mind the way the product started in 1999 as I explained in the first paragraph, I'll leave it up to you to interpret this in the way you see fit.

Lastly I know specifications don't mean anything really if something might not sound good, but these mic preamps are extremely high headroom, low noise, and have quite a bit of available gain (65db). I think Dale is quite the honest & humble guy, here is what he states as specifications for the product:

Gain Range: 25 - 65 dB
Headroom: +32 dB
Noise Floor: -128.6 dBm (close to theoretical limit)

So to say the OSA line doesn't compare to an API when presenting the clear cut evidence just doesn't make sense to me. It seems really biased. OSA and API are both are great products that can be complimentary to each other. I apologize in advance to those true technicians out there for any technical blurbs or contradictions I have made, please don't shoot the messenger.

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Nathan Eldred
atlasproaudio.com
 
The cool thing about the API/OSA chassis is the way you can mix and match components. For around $2K you can get a rack and a few preamps or EQ's. Then when you're ready to blow another $3-600 you can add another module.

Is it possible to get a DSUB or Centronics connector on the chassis?
 
Yeah, I agree, specs. aren't usually a big thing to worry about. But I find one of the most important ones being Headroom.

API 512C: +8dBu = 1.95V
Mackie VLZ and 8 Bus: +14dBu = 3.88V
Mackie VLZ PRO: +22dBu = 9.76V
FMR RNP: +27.5dBu = 18.38V
All OSA: +32dBm = 30.85V (with 600 ohm load)
DaviSound "Mic-All": +32dBV = 39.81V

It's something to think about if you're gonna be using hot output condensers on loud instruments such as drums. Also, now you know how that insanely loud oprea or gospel singer overloaded your Mackie 8 Bus preamp!

By the way, the transformers OSA uses have the highest headroom I've EVER heard of from any transformer!
 
Recording Engineer said:
Yeah, I agree, specs. aren't usually a big thing to worry about. But I find one of the most important ones being Headroom.

API 512C: +8dBu = 1.95V
Mackie VLZ and 8 Bus: +14dBu = 3.88V
Mackie VLZ PRO: +22dBu = 9.76V
FMR RNP: +27.5dBu = 18.38V
All OSA: +32dBm = 30.85V (with 600 ohm load)
DaviSound "Mic-All": +32dBV = 39.81V

It's something to think about if you're gonna be using hot output condensers on loud instruments such as drums. Also, now you know how that insanely loud oprea or gospel singer overloaded your Mackie 8 Bus preamp!

By the way, the transformers OSA uses have the highest headroom I've EVER heard of from any transformer!
Click to expand...



Thanks RE, great info....I knew there was a drastic difference between the lower and higher end of things, but to see it in print really is enlightening.

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Nathan Eldred
atlasproaudio.com
 
If you want it "colored" I think it's best to get some of the stuff from the 60's or so...And it's much more fun to have the original than a modern copy available for everyone. There are more brands than Neve around.

Hans
 
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