Collective Wisdom

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Jack Hammer

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" Buy cheap, Buy twice" This is the basic idea. This is also something I intuitively knew in some respects but was not aware of its application to recording gear. Advertisers, at least lately (I am new to recording though I have been a musician for a long time and I am recently back from a 15 year hiatus) work hard to convince us that the sound we want is now available at a fraction of what it used to cost. Fro instance, the bargain tube boxes and, of course, the bargain large condensor microphones. In coming back to music and particulary recording, I was purchasing everything from scratch, a large investment at once. Becuase of this, I was obliged to be budget conscious and so for microphones, my first purchase was a Rode NT1. The advertisers/manufactureres touted this as the second coming, the functional equivalent of those famed condensor microphones that have been the standards of the industry that were, until now, priced out of reach for the average home studio owner. Well, this certainly sounded reasonable, after all, with all the advancements in technology, shouldn't they be able to produce a microphone, something based on what might be termed ancient technology, alot cheapr than they could years ago. Should they now have certain manufacturing techniques automated to the point that what once was an expensive procedure is no longer so and therefore, a microphone as good as the legendary German models can be had for a fraction of the cost. Apparently, this is not so. And so, as I contemplate what I will ultimately do, the question that comes to mind is really this, when does the quality of the microphone so far exceed the rest of the signal chain or the uses to which it is put that is becomes overkill. In other words, in my home project studio, will I be able to get the benefit of Neuman microphone without a prsitine recording booth, top of the line pre-amp, reverb, delay, compressor etc. And, I am using all of this through a mackie board. Would I then need a Neve channel or Amek or whatever.
I wonder, because according to the wisdom on this site, when I am ready to purchase an upgraded microphone, if I have 2 or 3k to spend, I should do so. But is this true?
 
I think the mic should be the last thing you throw all your money at. I am starting to believe wholeheartedly in a "reverse signal chain" rule as far as where your money should be spent. Just put your signal chain in reverse:

1) Recording medium (must have good a/d converters or analog recording medium). This is the most important place to spend your money.

2) Preamp. I'd take an sm-57 through a Great River over a Neuman through an audio buddy any day of the week.

3) Microphone. If you spent your money wisely on numbers one and two, then you may discover a whole new love of cheap mics. :)

The only exception to this rule is with the compressor, and that is because of the RNC and Behringer Composer being so affordable.
 
Chessrock--you make good points. A lousy recording medium isn't gonna make either the big pre or the expensive mic sound its best.

If I was Jack, I'd try to get the best medium I could afford as my first purchase. Then add peripherals as budget allows. So much depends on what direction one's recording needs are going in. I have to do cut/paste edits all the time, as well as time compressing, MIDI and other weird things, so its computer-land for me. If I was trying to do major label productions, I'd want 2" tape--or just rent a studio with all the bells and whistles!

So, Jack--my first question is: what are you planning to record with your setup? Rock bands? Classical? Folk? Jingles? Voiceovers?
 
Jack Hammer said:

I wonder, because according to the wisdom on this site, when I am ready to purchase an upgraded microphone, if I have 2 or 3k to spend, I should do so. But is this true?

What is the deciding factor that will tell you your ready? Hone your skills as an engineer. You will get great results by knowing how to use what you have. Having expensive gear and not knowing how to use it will result in nothing better than you already have...

You can get great results with most any gear given the proper use of it. :D

Alan Hyatt
 
As a man forced to pretty cheap equipment due to budgetary restraints,I feel your pain.The mic that was an eye opener for me was the MXL 2001p.I had read glowing reviews on the 2001p in recording mags but I had no way to try the mic (although that might not have helped as my only experience was with cheap dynamics).I also bought an Art "tube" mp using the same criteria,needless to say I am not satisfied with either item.

There are decent deals to be had even at the bottom feeder level however.I bought an Audio Technica 3525 for $150 ($50 less than I paid for the MXL)and it sounds much better than the 2001p.I bought an Audio Buddy and ditched the MP and it sounds like someone took a blanket off the speaker.Especially when your budget is limited you have to really research your purchases.I am waiting patiently for Studio Projects B-series to hit the streets as I think they will set a new benchmark in budget mics but time will tell.

As far as spending a couple of grand on a new mic I think everyone is right to say to make sure that the rest of your recording chain is up to snuff and you have experience using what you have.Then instead of dropping $2000 on one mic I would pick up a few good ones.Maybe a Blue Baby Bottle,a SP C-3 and a couple good small dia condensers.I'm sure a couple grand will buy you a very nice mic but it would also buy you a nice mic locker.No matter how nice one individual mic is,it will not always be the best mic for the job and there are some awfully nice mics out there for quite a bit less than $1000.
 
Much respect to Alan for those golden words.

To your question, I'd say buy that which has stood the test of time. Sennheiser MD421, for example, has been in commercial facilities for decades. Like a 57, you probably won't sell it off in a couple of years when you get tired of its flavor. This may not be true of the recent flurry of Chinese LD's.

I just use mics as an example. If you're asking where in the chain to spend your money, that's almost like the Mac vs. PC debate. IOW, please gawd, not again!

Try to buy quality pieces throughout. Howz dat? Each quality link will reveal the shortcomings of the cheaper ones.
-kent
 
taken from a post at rec.audio.pro Harvey Gerst

If I had to start from scratch, I'd probably go with these first:

A Marshall MXL V67G Condensor for vocals and as a room mic.
2 Marshall MXL 603S Condensors for overheads, guitars, and perc.
2 Audix TR-40 Omni Condensors for overheads, guitars, and perc.
About 4 or 5 Shure SM-57 Dynamics for snare, toms, guitars, etc.
3 or 4 Sennheiser MD 504-D or 604 Drum Mount Cardioids for toms
An AudioTechnica ATM-25 for kick
A Beyer M-201 for snare and various things
A Shure SM-7 Dynamic for an alternate main vocal mic
A Sennheiser MD 421 for floor tom and other stuff (including vocals)

Those mics would cover about 99% of anything that I normally record, and
I could get by pretty easily with just the above mics for a long time.

Then, when I had some more money, I'd add a Neumann TLM-103, some ribbon
mics, and a few more other flavors.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/
Now although sinse this post was posted you may add the ecm 8000,s, and a few other selected flavours.

Why beat your head against a wall, a man with more experience then we will hope to have has spelt it out many times and showed us all the hows and why,s a number of times, here check out his list then buy when you can buy at the right price, then go and hone your skills this way the mics you bought will be of some benefit to you then.

As its been said many times before mics or great gear will not save you only you can do this with knowledge and experience acquire wealth in knowledge not in gear then with your knowledge you can make most gear work to your benifit
 
I hoipe I'm not misunderstood

I see exactly what you are all saying, particularly such comments as made by Alan H. To clear this up a bit, I am doing, at this point, mostly demos of my compositions which are pop tuns though with a deicdedly jazz and blues flavor, instrumentals in the CD101.9 style and orehstral emulations in the style of an average soundtrack. What is most important is this. I am not a singer, however, I do sing the songs when I record thme strictly for demo purposes. I will probably at some point hire a singer to do final vocals (lead vocals if not backrounds as well though my voice is not quite so bad on backround). Also, and this may be significant, I cut my teeth so to speak in the late seventies and early eighties in regualar, analogue, 2" tape, 24 track, professional studios first as a keyboard player, then I dabbled in production and composition. Though I experienced some minor sucess, I did decide to leave the field for a somewhat sabbatical and, as it turns out, the sabbatical lasted fifteen years. So, here is my point. In re-joining the community, I first read some information, asked around and then jumped in. For my first microphone, I bought a Rode NT1, oh yes, and a dbx channle strip model 376. I have been pleased with the sound. IT DOES NOT SOUND AS CRISP AND CLEAR AND DETAILED AND DEEP as some of my favorite recordings old or new, however, for what I am doing, I have, as I said, been pleased with the sound. Then, I came across posts on this site describing the Rode NT1 as the "flavor-of-the-day" the latest "hook-lin-and-sinker" essentially a giimick if you will.

So the point is, this microphone has done fine for me and it has allowed be to do two very important thins. The first is to get my composition ideas down and sonically "legible" if you will. The second is it has allowed me the oppotunity to learn how to use such a microphone with the channle strip, compression, reverb, delay and what ever else I have experimented with. I know for a fact that my skill has improved by leaps and bounds. Though I did some producing before leaving the business, I think that learning how to engineer has been the single most important thing I have done to improve my production capabilities after learning music. I know I can play keys and arrange and write music. How "good" it is or whether it appeals to others is another story, but, what I never knew before was how to record, how to use the studio, how, ultimately, to really produce a recording.

Now the real point. After spending time with the Rode NT1, ejoying it, learning with it, expermenting with it, I have improved all around. I may very well be back to a point where I will have the opportunity to do some profeesional recording and production. Now, intially, I did not think that the home equipment I was purchasing would be used for this purpose. I assumed, that things were like they were in the old days and that once the demo is done and you are ready to make a master recording, it is time to rent a professional facility. But, in the intervening months I have learned that this is not necessarily so anymore and, I have improved m y enginerring skills enough to see that there are some things that could be tracked at home for mastering purposes (I don't mean to master it myself, I mean of the quality that could ultimately be mastered)> According to the wisdom on this site, there is no reason to purchase an interim mic. I shouold not, therefore, purchase a mic that is qaulity wise and pricewise in between the NT1 and the Neuman u87 (Is that the right one, the standard classic or whatever metaphoric reference you use).
If I do so, I will ultimately be buying again to obtain the Neuman eventhough my uses and skill, at this point do not demand such a microphone RIGHT NOW. Ultimately, they will so why, as they say, pussyfoot around. When I am ready to purchase, wait, save a bit more, and purchase the best.

My question then was, even if that were so and I did that, will that not now cause a domino effect that I cannot keep up with. I will then need a better preamp to capture the sounds of the great mic and a better mixer, then a better recording meduim, higher sampling rate recording, better sound isolation etc. and so forth. At some point, I can record a great vocal track that can very well be a hit song without such an expensive microphone. After all, the cost of the equipment never, ever, ever makes the preformance. One has not realtion to the other so that if the preformance is there and I have a goo dmic with a decent signal chain that I have used properly, I do not actually need the best and will not have to ultimately purchase that Neumand or whatever. I use Neuman as an example though I am aware there are other high end microphones out there.

In the end, I think that the goal of having the best equipment is besides the point, actually the goal is musical sound and that depends on the preformance, the engineering and lastly, the equipment. At least to my way of thinking.


Jack H.
 
BTW

Sorry to be so long winded but I am somewhat offended by the attitudes I sometimes see on this site where the equipment is more important than the use its put to and the ultimate result. That, to me, mises the point.


Jack H.
 
Well, yeah, Jack--I think most people here understand that feeling too. Most of us are working on a shoestring budget and going for bang for the buck. Its just that sometimes someone will find something that makes a huge difference and knock what they had before. (Like raving about an Octava 012 that just replaced the SM58 that used to record a Martin.) I can understand somebody touting a piece of gear that makes a noticeable difference in quality. I mean, thats part of what we are searching for.

The other part of the search is actually recording and trying various mic placements, different mics, different pre's, comp settings, EQ settings...on and on. I think engineering skill can compensate for lesser gear quite often. Then, there is the whole aspect of doing the mix, which is another entire chapter, and then mastering. Everybody's gonna have different opinions about all these things as well as what gear to use to get the best result.

All I am saying is to consider the source. An engineer who's spent his life in the studio is most likely going to praise some high end gear. Why? Cause its better--and it gives him a slight edge over the home studio folks. A $300 signal path probably can't compete with a $5000 signal chain--but things are getting better and better on the low end. I can't afford the real expensive stuff yet. But, I agree with you that if you really milk what you have, you can make some great recordings that if mixed and mastered well, can stand up to most of whats out there.

Theres always gonna be somebody that says your mics not good enough, your preamp sucks, your room sounds bad, your reverb is lousy, your mixer is an antique and your ADAT (or whatever)can't make CD quality music. Yet, I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone on this BBS say "I can't believe you got such high quality with the equipment you have." Personally, I kind of like Jack Cements notion that good records are 90% the performance. The rest is just capturing what they did without making any tactical blunders. So, I guess I basically agree with ya!
 
I would love to have a high dollar mic but I would still buy an assortment of mid to moderately priced mics instead.I think that one mic,no matter what the pricetag,is not going to meet the needs of every application.For two to three large you can get a very nice mic locker now days with some very nice sounding mics that are capable of producing professional product.If you already have an assortment of mics getting something very high end would be cool but if you only have one or two other mics I think you would be better served with a choice of good mics.
 
If your gear serves your purposes and pleases you, what do you care what a bunch of strangers on the web with silly screen names say about it?
-kent
 
Well put

Kent said it a few words. Actualy, I don't. It is only for the purpose of dicussion. I am ver pleased with the equipment and sound I get and I do not own any truly high end stuff toher than maybe this computer that I am now typing on and even that has been knocked down a notch by the latest releases.
Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful replies.
 
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