Collaboration NiGhTmArE !!!

Crappy McB was telling me the Long & Winding Road story the other day - y'all prob'ly know it, but it was new to me...

...McCartney had a stripped-down version he wanted to do, but Spector got his hands on it and turned it into 1001 strings - after a bit of sparring and jockeying for position, the Spector version made the album. McCartney was livid, hear tell he's still pissed at Spector (a certifiable prick anyhow) 30+ years later.

Collabs are tough!! Watch the Wilco movie from last year (I Am Trying to Break Your Heart). Watch what happens when Bennett steps up from sideman to collaborateur --- HE GETS FIRED!. "Sorry, man, I just can't make music with you anymore." Or, "a circle can only have one center." (Hold the cookie jokes). Kinda clear why Uncle Tupelo broke up, huh? And the Beatles, I guess.

Toki and I got through (not quite done yet) by being overly deferential. We both wanted to make sure the other guy got HIS stamp on it. We also each had a vision for the tune, not identical, but compatible. You read our threads, you can see some of the back-and-forth.

What will come out will be a little bit me, a little bit him, and hopefully a lot of us. But collabs are risky...

...watch these pages for when The Crappy One gets our collab together - his song, my chord changes. All outta my hands now, unless he asks for a retake. Just gotta trust him. And I do. As I do Toki.

Daf
 
I'm one of the people who ended up bailing on a collaboration with dobro. I still feel bad about it to this day, but... basically it was just too hard at the time. I found myself totally nervous and unsure of my abilities...I had a hard time relating to the song style...I couldn't find the right tone....and I was just plain busy with a lot of stuff. I actually finished it, but something just didn't seem right about it, so I never sent it back. It's ok though because the part dobro ended up doing was really cool IMO.

Collaborations don't always work out, and they shouldn't be expected to. It's about fun...sometimess you'll be productive, other times nothing will happen.

HOWEVER, if dobro had played one of the parts I had written on his own...I would have been really pissed off. That's pretty much what this guy did to you, and it's wrong, very wrong. You have every right to be very upset.

Slackmaster 2000
 
LOL - yeah, the thought of using your part crossed my mind actually LOL. It makes me wonder how many of the ideas coming up in forums like this are just getting ripped off and used somewhere else all the time. It's a risky business though, cuz if anybody ever found out, there'd be a *big* gang of people on their ass toute de suite LOL.

You had the ideas for that guitar part nailed, mr 2k. It's a pity it never made it to ripeness, cuz it was exactly what the song was asking for. I should have offered you more money LOL.
 
hmmmm......I don't know if I'd be pissed if someone played my parts or not. I mean, it's just ideas ya' know? It's not like they have some intrinsic value. And the fact that they used them is a complement.
I guess it would be irritating to have worked on something and not get to be the one who's playing on the recording but on the other hand, I don't get real worked about stuff like that. I play 3-5 nights a week and all those musical ideas just go into the air and are gone forever so I don't tend to get real attached to music I make. I can always make more so who cares.
I'm not saying that I wouldn't choose to never again work with someone who I felt ripped me off; I'm just saying that in the grand scheme of things, it wouldn't rank very high with me.
Maybe if I was a star who's songs made a lot of money it would be different because of the money involved but that's not really an issue for any of us.
 
all those musical ideas just go into the air and are gone forever so I don't tend to get real attached to music I make. I can always make more so who cares.

I can relate to this statement. But what really torques me is the times that I get home afterwards and realize that my best, most creative moments of the whole day happened during soundcheck.
 
Do you trust every musician you meet in a bar? I don't.

The internet is even worse than a bar. Don't fool yourself, no matter how nice we all look on the screen: you hardly know anyone of us.

I do trust some people from this board wholeheartedly, but that's because I took the time and effort to get to know these people. With many, collaborating wasn't the first thing on my mind...I just wanted to know more about their music, lives and ambitions.

I think you should just limit your collab offers a little Studioviols, don't jump in on every opportunity. Take your time to get acquainted to these people, see how they work, how they think.

That being said, since you've chosen to take this story out in the open (which seems a bit 'unethical' to me) I'd like to add something that bothers me a little (not much, just strikes me as weird):

You've presented only one side of the story, yet almost everyone assumes this is the whole story. Like I said, I hardly 'know' anyone on the internet and that includes you. Who says you are telling the truth (and nothing but the truth? :) ) It's tempting to assume, but I know I'm not sure about it. Who can possibly know? I'm actually quite surprised by the number of people who seem to be 100% sure about this... :)

What I'm really trying to say is: I understand your point and annoyance, but is 'out-in-the-open' the right place to post complaints like these? Isn't it way too personal for a mp3 clinic?

Am I being perhaps thinking too much? Am I getting overworked? LOL (I'm working 12/13 hours a day, I'm just posting during a break....I probably regret it tomorrow) :D
 
Ped brings up some good points here.. let's hear the other side.

the only way to really get this resolved is to name names,




and let him stand before his accusers! :eek:


I'm sure you'll have great collabos in the future SV..
 
...but I knew he was saying what had to be said! I whispered an answer. No one heard me. No one cared. No one listened to vegetables then. And Charles was a potato! An 'Irish spud' we used to call him behind his back. Yes gone, gone are the days when we could recognize the cities by the color of their smoke. A new government will be formed within ours! Why not?! The youth have turned against the youth. Young people throwing bats at other young people - simply over-reacting - merely guessing that their lives are threatened. Of course I deploy - ahem - deplore such tactics, and practice restraint, because here and now, unlike yesterday, our excuses CAN be made! Out tracks covered with the dustrake of sober and reason subterfuge. After all I would not want to intercede or fear - ahem - or interfere. I'm merely just an absurd - ahem - observer. And until we find out who has the cold nose among us - I think we all better sit back with crossed legs and count noses, and blow noses and just - be quiet.

Anyone care to name that tune?
 
dobro trumpeted :
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... stop trying to get those people for the sake of serving my song ...
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Very good advice. I'm beginning to see that there is a lot of 'circumstance', 'fate', and 'luck' involved in landing a good collab. Being from a tighter head ... 'Steps of Production' head, I really do want to interject my professional Project Management skills into collabs, (as musical production), this is art, and I'm learning. Thanks for your contribution to this thread dobro. I know you are busy with your own frogs ;-) .

dafduc composed :
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... by being overly deferential. We both wanted to make sure the other guy got HIS stamp on it ...
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I think your christianity helps you tremendously in collaborations, I mean ... how would Jesus handle a collab ? :) . I think you work hard to show us how. Appreciate YOU ! And those are some good anecdotes to share with us also. The one about Wilco is especially important to me because seeing Wilco, hanging out with them, and a short jam with their violinist while I was at LSU studying in the early 90's, is a very strong memory in my mind of early experiences with 'the biz'. Thanks again for touching this thread.

sm2k shared :
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HOWEVER, if dobro had played one of the parts I had written on his own...I would have been really pissed off. That's pretty much what this guy did to you, and it's wrong, very wrong. You have every right to be very upset.
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I'm not rubbing my hands together here and laughing evily :) ... but this is the kind of soul searching I'm doing, and I sure thank a board member for revealing theirs ... I like the confession too ... ! :D ... 'can i get a witnessssss, oh yeah ... can i get a witnessss ... '

dobro healed wounds with :
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... It's a risky business though ... I should have offered you more money LOL ...
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Yeah, but he would have never played for as cheap as me ... oops !


Lt. Bob mellowed with :
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hmmmm......I don't know if I'd be pissed if someone played my parts or not. I mean, it's just ideas ya' know? It's not like they have some intrinsic value. And the fact that they used them is a complement.
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You ... have ... a' ... much ah wisdommmmmmm ... ah sooooo :D


dafduc giggled :
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spoken like a true folky tie-dyed hippie
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HEY !, who stole my tie-dies out da drier !


kjam22 epiphanied with :
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happened during soundcheck.
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You mean ... that was soundcheck ! I thought that was the gig ! darn !


Pedullist :
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no matter how nice we all look on the screen ... I think you should just limit your collab offers a little Studioviols, don't jump in on every opportunity ... Who says you are telling the truth ... Isn't it way too personal for a mp3 clinic
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yeah ... looka that avatar !!!

Yes, I'm going to cool the jets on collab offers and start just laying track now. I documented everything, down to even saving the webpage at nowhereradio.com of the offending post. I have the yahoo! messenger chat transcripts, the emails and the PM's. If worst came to worst, I would give my passwords to a trusted board member, or maybe even dobro for him to verify this account in my PM and my email account.

B. SABBATH pilloried with :
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the only way to really get this resolved is to name names, and let him stand before his accusers ... I'm sure you'll have great collabos in the future SV..
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Dobro and Slackmastuh have mended fences right here and now on this board, and they have already made the example to us all, and I appreciate those two grown boys ... ohhhh, pinch their little cheeks !

The ball is in the other party's court. I welcome them on this thread.

If they want to enter, they can. And they can gather a great reputation and relieve some paranoia's ... :D ... set us all at ease ... and they can do themselves a service by gaining the trust of the board members.

Perhaps some illusions will be torn down, and other board members will be more wary, and that can help to protect the board in the long run.

They, ... and probably a few other posters know who they are.
The clues are very strong, and there's one that's a dead giveaway :D , Mistah Green, in the living room ... with the candlestick !
<theme music out>
 
I have a simple and very self serving solution. Wash your hands of the whole thing and move on to putting stings on my acoustic piece. I'm dying to hear what you're going to do to it. :=)
 
I don't know how different and unique my thoughts will be on the issues of collaborating with others to make music?

My experience with writing and recording music with others is almost as intense as a marriage between a husband and wife. I have been co-writing and recording with one person for the past 25 years.

It takes a lifetime to get to know the inner workings of each person. How they think, how they feel, what they can and can't do. If you are incredibly lucky, you will meet your band-mate or mates and develop a sound as well as a philosophy of musical expression together.

In my case, it is an ever evolving process of learning and growing musically and as a human being.

To expect to just quickly hook up with someone and create some instant musical magic is kind of like having an affair and expecting it to be everything that a long standing and dedicated relationship would offer and I don't know if that is a realistic expectation.

In the past, for me, all the musicians I have worked with were done the old fashioned way, in person. The internet is an incredible tool that can create some very good virtual reality environments but, it is not the same as actually knowing the other person and working together in the same room and sharing a true interaction.

I wouldn't try to use the internet as a viable way of replacing what really should be done face to face.

Having said all of that, let me say one last thing;

I have enjoyed working with you, Studioviols. You seem to be a very decent and sincere human being. I like you and I trust you and hopefully, you trust me too for my vows to continue working with each other. Face to face, I am sure we could accomplish far more then we ever could through the internet but, I am new at this virtual electronic world and am willing to give it a shot at a careful pace that doesn't step on each others real world realities.

Cheers! :)
 
"A greenish blue, one of the subtractive primary colors"


Am i getting warmer here? I think i just got a drive-by review because of this thread.

At first i was confused but then i started to put 2 + 2 together.
 
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