grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
A most eloquent, balanced and well rounded defence, mate.
Close micing drums vs. Glyn Johns method for 1st time recording drums??
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Take two of these and call me in the morning.
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Mo Facta
Farts of Nature
Win? What is this? Elementary school? It's a debate on audio. And please show me where I said what you have there in quotations.
All due respect but I think you've missed the point. Checking mixes in mono is not what I'm talking about. It's the mid phantom image. If you don't know what that is, read this. Mono is mono. A mid image in stereo is a different thing, and is a crucial aspect to contrast in width AND definition and punch. I'm beginning to think you're arguing with me the way you are because you just don't understand the concept of what I'm saying.
Sounds like you're the only one getting all uptight and trying to preach to someone who said they agree with a lot of what you're saying. You need to calm down and not get so defensive. I made it clear that everything I was saying applied to ME and works for ME. But hey, knock yourself out, it's your heart attack, not mine.
Dude, projection is a silly quality. I'm not defensive, nor am I uptight. I am debating a concept in audio. If you recall, you were the first one to disect every line in my first post in this thread and now this debate we're in is the resut. Do not mistake someone disagreeing with you as an uptight or defensive measure.
OK, now you're just being petty, trying to find anything you can hang your hat on. I do think overheads should capture most of your kit...like about 98%...or maybe 95%...or about 93%....OK?
Who's being defensive again?
All that works fine on paper, but doesn't always apply in real life. If my kik mic is out of phase with my overheads, then flipping the polarity works fine. I usually have to do it with my snare and sometimes on the kik. So does lining up your tracks in your DAW for those who prefer doing it that way.But I have never had a problem with the kik being out of phase in the 2 overheads. I don't mean it's never out of phase, I mean it's never caused a problem when mixing the style of music I play and mix. Please feel free to go listen to a drum track of mine and tell me which way the kik is leaning. There's a difference between "ignoring" a problem and actually "having" a problem. Nobody's ignoring anything. If there is a problem, I address it.
Like I said, I used to take the time to center the kik in the overheads with Glyn Johns, but found that it doesn't make a difference when I mix. Again, I'm talking about what works for me. I'm not telling you to change your approach to anything.
Ok well at this point we obviously are not seeing eye to eye on this so let's just let bygones be bygones. I am not trying to change your approach to anything but merely arguing a point that I feel is important for not just a good drum recording, but a great one. My personal agenda in audio is excellence and I feel that correct phase relationship in a drum recording and a potent center image is the difference. Take that how you will.
Cheers
R
RAMI
Guest
I admit, that was a bad paraphrase. I quoted you saying this: "I mic the kik because I don't see the overheads as just cymbal mics". You said exactly this: "I most definitely want my kick drum to come through the overheads because I don't just view them as there for merely the cymbals".
I meant "having the kik in the overhead mics". Doesn't matter, the point was that it doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. You can still get most of your kik from the kik mic without the overheads being just cymbal mics. Extremes.
Dude, I'm simply responding to some of your statements.
Nice try. I see what you're trying to do there.
Like I said, I don't disagree with most of what you're saying on a technical level. I'm saying that if you don't HEAR a problem, then there is no problem. You can bury your nose in all the literature/charts/graphs you want, but it's your ears that matter. I'm not going to spend time addressing a problem on paper, if it's not a problem coming out of my speakers/headphones. That's probably too simple for you.
As for the rest, we agree more than you think. If phase was causing me problems in my recordings, I would address it, just like you or anyone else would (or should). I have had tracks that needed to be re-tracked because of phase problems, but that's usually been caused by not placing my overheads properly. I don't ignore phase. I just don't waste my time on problems that aren't there.
The original statement that started this back-and-forth was your claim that the Glyn Johns method falls apart for you, since the kik isn't centred in the overheads. That argument is moot since you CAN center both the kik and the snare in the overheads if you really feel it's important. So, your original statement is false to begin with.
The rest is just you going on and on about your quest for excellence, which we're all striving for, so you're not alone.
I went and read the article that you linked to. I'm always open to learning something. But, the only thing I learned from the article was this: (He's talking about moving the pan pot left and right with a mono signal)
Seems to me that, unless my kik drum is 3db louder in one speaker than the other, there shouldn't be an audible difference. I actually find that hard to believe, but that's what the article says. Am I mis-understanding this? If so, I'm open to having it explained to me. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm serious.
Here's the link for those who are interested. The article talks a lot about using the HAAS effect, among other things: http://www.moultonlabs.com/more/principles_of_multitrack_mixing_the_phantom_image/P1/
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Farview
Well-known member
I can't worry too much about the placement of the kick in the overheads because I frequently record kits with two kick drums. The close mics are always panned dead center, but obviously, there is no way to get both kicks centered in the overheads. It really never seemed to be a problem...
My take on this (repeating..
is the Haas pan effect swamps the small level differences from the distance loss.
Mo Facta
Farts of Nature
I meant when you sum the close kick mic to the stereo overheads, not summing to mono. I really do feel you're not getting what I'm saying.
My posting of the Moulton article was meant to illustrate not the discrepancies in panning (he is a LCR proponent) but the importance of a center image in a stereo mix. This is my point, essentially. The rest can be debated as there are many professionals that do not use the LCR method that produce great mixes.
However, I am of the opinion that if your kick drum is even a fraction of a dB louder on one side it will cause the image to become skewed even if the ears to do not perceive it immediately. Think about it. The left speaker, for example, will be pushing a little more air than the right and the image will be blurred somewhat, instead of being a unanimous push with equal power. The fact that Dave Moulton has concluded in his research that many people, including seasoned pros, have trouble identifying a source within 3dB either side of the stereo field means that the ear can be fooled easily into thinking everything is OK when it is actually not. It's just they will never know until they hear the potency of a well crafted phantom image. A guy who is a complete genius at this is Spike Stent (along with Adrian Bushby, the recording engineer). Listen to the Muse album, Resistance. The center image is unbelievably potent and I believe it's because he is a master at LCR mixing and the ideas that I have been going on about. The fact that his center image is so effective actually serves to make the rest of the mix sound wider because it contrasts to what's gong in the sides so dramatically. If you use a M/S solo plugin to listen to the mid and side sources you will hear what I am talking about. It's absolute genius.
Regarding the Glyn Johns method, it has always been described as one OH being centered above the snare and the other firing over the right shoulder to the same spot on the snare. Am I correct? Whenever I have tried this the snare no doubt is completely in phase but the kick drum always seemed to be skewed. This could be room inconsistency but it seems to me the whole basis of the GJ method is focus on the snare. It would also seem that any other configuration would merely be creative spaced pair miking. This was my point about it "falling apart" because I personally need both the snare and the kick to exhibit equal power in the overheads. I always start with the overheads and don't think about adding close mics til I get them right. That's just a method that works well for me.
So, after all is said and done I would like to say I never meant any animosity and merely was trying to get my point across in the most straightforward way possible. I hope you can see now where I'm coming from.
Cheers
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R
RAMI
Guest
No, I get most of what you're saying. But when I'm skimming through a long post and pick up phrases like "sum to mono" in a sentence, I assume you're talking about listening for phase issues in mono.
Yes, but I have also seen people line the kik up too. I guess you can say any 2 mic configuration is just a creative spaced pair miking, but the Recorderman and Glyn Johns have that one mic pointing straight down at the snare, which is their "trademark" I guess.
Yeah man, it's all good. I think we both thought the other one was getting uptight at one point, but it's just a difference in approach/philosophy. I might have even learned something.
Thank you for the Moulton article. Hadn't read it in a while and it has some important points in there.
But just to balance (or counter) where you're going with phantom image/level/Haas, a point could also be taken that a few db either way does not actually by it's self pull the phantom image off! .4Ms offset (4"!) will.. hugely.
The other factor he's pointed out (I believe, and I could likely use some refreshing with specific differences in LCR) is part of that very strong center is also due to the removal of all the vague effects of things panned in between.
That 'string thing.. (where possible with your o/h's) does suggest including the kick in the method.
Recorderman Overhead Drum technique - YouTube
This might also touch on part of what I mentioned earlier about feeling that offsets on faster attack' stuff being easier to hear. They chose the beater head to cue to; it's likely the most audible cue (from above), and it's practical, ie the drum's huge, there's not place you can pick that doesn't might not include sound outside of Haas'. Is this where you'd be meaning going with looking at your db's primarily?
Not to discount your point well taken though. If it's 'center, do it!
Later..
But just to balance (or counter) where you're going with phantom image/level/Haas, a point could also be taken that a few db either way does not actually by it's self pull the phantom image off! .4Ms offset (4"!) will.. hugely.
The other factor he's pointed out (I believe, and I could likely use some refreshing with specific differences in LCR) is part of that very strong center is also due to the removal of all the vague effects of things panned in between.
That 'string thing.. (where possible with your o/h's) does suggest including the kick in the method.
Recorderman Overhead Drum technique - YouTube
This might also touch on part of what I mentioned earlier about feeling that offsets on faster attack' stuff being easier to hear. They chose the beater head to cue to; it's likely the most audible cue (from above), and it's practical, ie the drum's huge, there's not place you can pick that doesn't might not include sound outside of Haas'. Is this where you'd be meaning going with looking at your db's primarily?
Not to discount your point well taken though. If it's 'center, do it!
Later..
Glyn Johns technique is not that simple. It is entertaining for people who already know how to mic a drum set properly.
You should check out this free video. It is a pretty standard and efficient way to mic a drum kit.
Gearfest 2011: Tracking 1/6 Bass Drum - PUREMIX
Gearfest 2011: Tracking 2/6 Overheads, Hihat - PUREMIX
You should check out this free video. It is a pretty standard and efficient way to mic a drum kit.
Gearfest 2011: Tracking 1/6 Bass Drum - PUREMIX
Gearfest 2011: Tracking 2/6 Overheads, Hihat - PUREMIX