Classical guitar song - feedback wanted

[FattMusiek]

I'm recording a classical duo in my home studio. Last night one of the guitarists came over and we laid down a track as a test for our upcoming recording sessions in July. Here's my first mix:

Thanks for your time!

 

[asulger]

Nice sound, kind of bright and 'juicy' I guess you could say. I like it when you can hear a lot of the mechanical action that goes into playing a guitar.
Maybe it could use a boost below 160 hz.
What was the mic position and what mics did you use?

 

[David Katauskas]

I agree with asulger, it needs a little more bottom. I'm not sure where. Otherwise, it sounds really nice. Including the "butt" word at the end.

 

[XLR]

Good guitarist. Tight rhythm and sense of the line. Hey, lately we're getting more nylon string stuff. I think the EQ balance is OK, maybe a little shy in the lower mids, but there's something else about the sound - kind of like a mic, room or processing related hard edge to it. Hard to know what's really happening here with the sound... I'd be interested to hear the orig unprocessed wav file. Also be interested to know the mic's used, their distance and configuration, pre's, room dimensions including ht. As it is, I think things are being brought out in it (squeaks, high freq buzzes, nail noise) that could be minimized with various different approaches.

In recording the duo, are you planning to do it as a "live" duet or by multitracking?

Tim

 

[FattMusiek]

Thanks for listening! I was using a classical guitar song called Danza Del Altiplano as a reference; I was trying to emulate the that sound and in doing so I guess I cut too much low end. I used an Oktava MK012 and an Audix F-15 in a slight X-Y pattern near the 14th fret. I think for the next attempt I will mic closer to the sound hole instead of facing slightly away from it. The Takamine guitar itself had a bit of a "brittle" sound to it. I think that problem will be gone when I record this guitarist's $4,000 guitar. I'm recording the duo simultaneously using two Oktava MK012s and two Audix F-15s.

 

[scottboyher]

Maybe more low's maybe not .. It is well done and well recorded..

 

[FattMusiek]

Good guitarist. Tight rhythm and sense of the line. Hey, lately we're getting more nylon string stuff. I think the EQ balance is OK, maybe a little shy in the lower mids, but there's something else about the sound - kind of like a mic, room or processing related hard edge to it. Hard to know what's really happening here with the sound... I'd be interested to hear the orig unprocessed wav file. Also be interested to know the mic's used, their distance and configuration, pre's, room dimensions including ht. As it is, I think things are being brought out in it (squeaks, high freq buzzes, nail noise) that could be minimized with various different approaches.

In recording the duo, are you planning to do it as a "live" duet or by multitracking?

Tim

I think part of the hard sound you're talking about was from the Audix mic; I can hear why the Oktavas are better for this application but I want to see what I can do with what I have before I spend $200 on two more MK012s. The mics were about 3 1/4 inches from the fretboard in a vertical X-Y pattern. The mics were very close to each other, one facing up and one facing down. I had a slight angle toward the frets and not the soundhole to avoid boominess. Here's an mp3 that hasn't been processed much; I realized my mistake in trying to make it loud like rock bands want it.

Scott Boyher- Thanks for the kind words. I still have Rubber Soul - Liberty on my computer and I think it's really good.

 

[XLR]

I think part of the hard sound you're talking about was from the Audix mic; I can hear why the Oktavas are better for this application but I want to see what I can do with what I have before I spend $200 on two more MK012s. The mics were about 3 1/4 inches from the fretboard in a vertical X-Y pattern. The mics were very close to each other, one facing up and one facing down. I had a slight angle toward the frets and not the soundhole to avoid boominess. Here's an mp3 that hasn't been processed much;

Hey, where’s the link?

FWIW, here's what I'd do myself (assuming the Oktavas have cardioid caps):
I'd use only the Oktavas and set up only 2 mic's for either solo or duo gtr. If the room sounds good, for solo gtr I'd start w/the mic's in ORTF or XY between 3 and 6 ft out from the spot between the bridge and soundhole, and for duo I'd keep the same distance and config, with the guitarists sitting next to each other, mic pair out from their midpoint. If the room is harsh or boomy with the mic's that far away I'd grab my mobile rig and take them out to a local church to record, and really, doing that can get you a recording that will amaze you - can make more difference than plonking down $3k on a DPA pair.

Alternatively, if limited to a studio room that requires close mic'ing, I'd try two things as starting points. 1) horizontal XY pair angled 90 to 130 deg to get a mic pointed directly at each gtr, capsules centered one over the other 2 ft out from the guitarists, who are close together and angled towards each other at 45 deg. 2) a single Oktava on each guitar 2 ft out from the spot between bridge and soundhole could work well, angled slightly to taste (I usually end up angled slightly towards the bridge), with the guitarists a few feet apart angled towards each other at 45 deg or more. Personally, I'd avoid the neck/body joint for classical with a strong player. It's great for steel string, but less so IME on classical – gets kind of a scooped sound lacking in richness.

Good luck with it.

Tim

 

[FattMusiek]

Here's the link:

Tim - Thanks for the great suggestions. I'm sure they will help me a lot. Most classical guitar recordings aren't very loud. Should I leave it up to the mastering engineer to make them louder?

 

[XLR]

I listened to the less processed file and agree that it's probably something in the orig tracking that got the effect I was hearing. The Audix mic might be contributing, and its placement too. And I neglected to ask something... aside from the mic color, did the track sound like the source did in the room? If not, can you describe the difference? An important question, I think, because classical gtrists have very different ideas about what a good tone is and some do get an intentional hard edged sound, usually described as "naily".

Most classical guitar recordings aren't very loud. Should I leave it up to the mastering engineer to make them louder?

Classical recordings IME generally attempt to keep a very lifelike dynamic range so that transients and especially phrase related volume changes come across as they would have to a listener in the room. Ends up usually with a lower average level and big peaks here and there.
Peak limiting can help sometimes w/playback consistency by hitting excessive peaks, maybe with 1 to 3 dB gain reduction at peaks every 5 to 20 seconds in a typical classical gtr piece. It can sometimes actually be done more effectively by hand rather than processing the whole file. Compression as used in rock recordings to thicken or glue a mix together usually has an effect opposite to the realistic “in the room” sound. However, very judicious use of a multiband comp can help w/classical gtr, as sometimes the lower mids can get way more dynamic than the rest of the spectrum. That’s a big subject in itself though and a mb comp can ruin the sound with more than gentle tweaking, or if one is used that has bad sounding crossover filters.
As far as saving all processing for the ME, I guess it depends on the quality of your processing gear/plugs and confidence in the monitoring environment, compared to those of the ME’s, as well as whether or not the ME is experience with classical music.

Tim