As i have stated in other posts, i am a guitarist who hasnt played that long and still have alot of issues with even basic theory. i fully understand that alot of music isnt theory and isnt logical and is more emotional, and for a change, would like to focus on both parts. as a guitarist who pretty fully understands and knows the major, minor, harmonic minor and lydian scales, im looking to expand them and develope a more outside sound. ive always admired guitarists who use quick cromatic run offs and thread cromatic notes into scales. two primary examples of what i mean are synyester gates from avenged sevenfold and steve vai. my simple question for this is basically as follows: is there a trick to using chromatic notes in music, or is it altogether a matter of randomness and playing whatever the hell you feel like?? if there is a trick, i would love to know what it is.
Chromatics
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Victory Pete
Banned
My motto is "You have to know the rules before you can break them"
VP
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mshilarious
Banned
If you are asking strictly about chromatic runs, no, there's not a trick, generally you start and end on notes of the scale and just play every note in between. Starting near a semitone interval might set up the run more naturally.
If you are asking about accidentals, that is borrowing 'chromatic' notes from a nearby or distant key, that's a different question.
If you are asking about accidentals, that is borrowing 'chromatic' notes from a nearby or distant key, that's a different question.
I say experiment with the technique in a non musical way like speed/independency excercises first. Then see if you can make the technique musical. Sometimes wrong notes are just wrong notes but whatever sounds good to you is music!
I like the old fashioned 1234 1243 1324 1342... excercise starting on the first string/first fret going to the sixth string and then back. It's a good warm up and would get your fingers ready for any half step action that's not stored in your muscle memory.
I like the old fashioned 1234 1243 1324 1342... excercise starting on the first string/first fret going to the sixth string and then back. It's a good warm up and would get your fingers ready for any half step action that's not stored in your muscle memory.
Light
New member
Playing "outside" can be about throwing in chromatic lines, but there are a lot of ways to get there.
First of all, you say you understand:
But this leads me to think you are missing a big part of the picture. Lydian is a mode of the major scale. It's the major scale starting on the fourth. And of course, you can do that from any note (the major scale is also called the ionian mode, followed by dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian, and locrian). So if you're playing in a minor key, using the phrygian mode (with it's flated 2nd and sixth) will sound a bit more outside than dorian or aeolian. But you can go further than that. You can do the same thing with the harmonic minor scale. There are different names for these modes (Locrian sharp 6, Harmonic Major, Spanish Phrygian, Double Harmonic Major, Lydian flat 3, Diminished is one group of names, but there are other names for them), and they will pretty much always sound more outside than the modes of the major keys.
At least as useful, if not more so, would be the constant structure scales. There are two, whole tone scales, and whole-half scales. they are just what they sound like - nothing but whole tones, and alternating whole and half tones. An odd thing about these scales - there are only two of each. Odd, huh? Usually just useful for an dissonant run now and then, but they sure do sound outside.
Once you have all of that down, you can start to have some real fun by making up your own scales, and then figure out all the modes for your own scale creations. But really, that's just theory stuff, and when you get on stage you really don't want to think about this stuff, so I tend to think it's better not to worry about getting all that deep. Harmonic minor modes and whole tone and whole half scales are pretty cool, though.
In another thread I suggested Mick Goodrick's The Advancing Guitarist. There is a lot of stuff in there that will help you with this stuff. Once again, I highly recommend it.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
First of all, you say you understand:
But this leads me to think you are missing a big part of the picture. Lydian is a mode of the major scale. It's the major scale starting on the fourth. And of course, you can do that from any note (the major scale is also called the ionian mode, followed by dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian, and locrian). So if you're playing in a minor key, using the phrygian mode (with it's flated 2nd and sixth) will sound a bit more outside than dorian or aeolian. But you can go further than that. You can do the same thing with the harmonic minor scale. There are different names for these modes (Locrian sharp 6, Harmonic Major, Spanish Phrygian, Double Harmonic Major, Lydian flat 3, Diminished is one group of names, but there are other names for them), and they will pretty much always sound more outside than the modes of the major keys.
At least as useful, if not more so, would be the constant structure scales. There are two, whole tone scales, and whole-half scales. they are just what they sound like - nothing but whole tones, and alternating whole and half tones. An odd thing about these scales - there are only two of each. Odd, huh? Usually just useful for an dissonant run now and then, but they sure do sound outside.
Once you have all of that down, you can start to have some real fun by making up your own scales, and then figure out all the modes for your own scale creations. But really, that's just theory stuff, and when you get on stage you really don't want to think about this stuff, so I tend to think it's better not to worry about getting all that deep. Harmonic minor modes and whole tone and whole half scales are pretty cool, though.
In another thread I suggested Mick Goodrick's The Advancing Guitarist. There is a lot of stuff in there that will help you with this stuff. Once again, I highly recommend it.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Last edited:
mshilarious
Banned
Three whole-half scales 
Try a break in a tune where the pianist plays only diminished chords, the bassist play one whole-tone scale, and you play the other. Four measures ought to do
Try a break in a tune where the pianist plays only diminished chords, the bassist play one whole-tone scale, and you play the other. Four measures ought to do
Light
New member
Three whole-half scales
Try a break in a tune where the pianist plays only diminished chords, the bassist play one whole-tone scale, and you play the other. Four measures ought to do
DOH! You are right. It's been a while since I thought about this shit.
My head hurts just imagining the sound of that.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
Confusing Noodles
There is a trick to using chromatic passages. The minor/ major third make a noodle that can be blusey, confusing the tonality surrounding the 'blue' note. The 4th, tritone, 5th can create a demented (diminished) sounding noodle confusing the space surrounding the Diablo en musica. The 6th, minor 7th, major 7th, octive can add a dimension where ascending and descending phrases can vary confusing whether you are implying natural, harmonic or melodic minor noodles. Noodling around three to four notes and weaving in and out of chromatic, diatonic and major and minor pentatonic scales gives you a start at building interesting solos. For modal playing I prefer Mixolydian, Aeolian and Dorian modes. Look for opportunities to build on 6/4 voicing.
There is a trick to using chromatic passages. The minor/ major third make a noodle that can be blusey, confusing the tonality surrounding the 'blue' note. The 4th, tritone, 5th can create a demented (diminished) sounding noodle confusing the space surrounding the Diablo en musica. The 6th, minor 7th, major 7th, octive can add a dimension where ascending and descending phrases can vary confusing whether you are implying natural, harmonic or melodic minor noodles. Noodling around three to four notes and weaving in and out of chromatic, diatonic and major and minor pentatonic scales gives you a start at building interesting solos. For modal playing I prefer Mixolydian, Aeolian and Dorian modes. Look for opportunities to build on 6/4 voicing.
mshilarious
Banned
I wouldn't even hear it as dissonant. Part of that is conditioning, but most of it is my ear training is completely gone out the window
Which actually works OK, because I can think of a theoretical idea and perhaps in execution it will be more interesting than I thought . . .
But as far as hearing a modulation and knowing the new key, can't do that so well
to reply to dogonjon, most of that is still slightly over my head, or im interprating it wrong and over thinking it (which i doubt). however, i am sure that when i reach that point it will be helpful to create the fun offs and tension in songs that i so much enjoy hearing. to reply to light, i am also working on learning things like the phyrgian which one that so far ive only scratched the surface of. i do understand the idea of modes, altho to be honest i perfer to think of a D lydian as an A ionian. i just think its easier than thinking of it from that standpoint. however i understand the point. i had never really given the thought of using a scale like a phyrgian or a harmonic minor over something that i would normally use a natural minor for. i will have to look into that further. i am also somewhat familiar with the whole tone and whole/half and half/whole diminished. ive always found tho that for listening purposed, cromatic notes create better disonance and outside sounds, although the ideas youre using do create an interesting point that might force me to rethink what i had previously believed. just to make sure that i understand what youre saying correctly, could you give me a specific musical example of what youre talking about??
Light
New member
Gods, I don't know. I don't really think about things like that anymore. I have some hand problems that pretty seriously curtailed my guitar playing for a long time, and I almost never play lines because of it. Honestly, most of the time these days I just think in terms of triads and fuck with them a bunch.
It's really pretty simple. You use the various modes as a framework. It's all well and good to say you can play any note at any time, but in reality that gets pretty overwhelming. The modes are a way of organizing them so you don't get lost in all those notes. So when you want to move a little bit more outside, you start using modes which are a little further from the tonality of the song. Beyond that is more than I'm able to do at the moment, as it's quite late, and I need to get to bed so I can get to the shop tomorrow so I can get our spray booth back together (I've spent most of the last three days tearing it apart so I could clean, scrap and repaint it, which may well be the worst job on the planet which doesn't involve dead bodies).
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi