ausrock
Well-known member
Calidus,
Would you care to define "cheap shit" so there can be no misunderstandings.
Rover = prestige???
Would you care to define "cheap shit" so there can be no misunderstandings.
Rover = prestige???
F
Flatpicker
...
Basically because the sum of the parts equal the whole. For example, the tube used in the original U47 doesn’t exist anymore, so they either have to adapt it to a new tube or convert it to a FET circuit. And if it did exist, the company that made the transformers (if still in business) would have to duplicate the transformers in exactly the same detail, which just aint gonna happen. I think the capsule diaphragm has improved, though, as it's now made out of mylar.randyfromde said:
Gibson and Marshall have changed manufacturing techniques, and parts sources so many times it isn’t funny. Also, in some cases, it’s just not economically feasible to manufacture parts like transformers, tubes, pickups, and such like they were in the old days.
OTOH, some companies have come pretty close to their hey-day, like the Fender custom Shop amps. But man! What a premium you pay!
S
statecap
New member
c7sus said:Oh yeah............ I can hardly wait to get that $20 "sound" on my next recording.
Jeez...you want to attack everyone don't you c7?
He was just giving us some information. Must you always come back with your smart-ass comments? Do you really think YOU were funny?
Everyone else seems to have given their viewpoint in a mature manner. You on the other hand shoot from the hip with a sharp tongue.
Grow up Man!!!
S
Sklathill
Soundcard Junkie
Yeah I know what you mean...ausrock said:
The article, anyways, has the author visiting the place, taking pictures, and talking to the guy, if not formally interviewing him. It doesn't seem like any precanned lines were fed to him... OR SO IT SEEMS! O_O!
Anyways, yeah, I get what you mean.
And frigging Rode...wth is up with your Japanese prices? I need to get those...
crazydoc
Master Baiter
It looks like lots of companies manufacture and sell "mylar" which is Dupont's trade name for polyethylene terephthalate film.DJL said:
Here's a price list for a 9 micron film (and I have no idea if this type is suitable for mic diaphragms):
http://www.goodfellow.com/csp/active/gfPDetail.csp?result=1&UpdateParam=1~~
Looks like a piece 4 inches by 12 inches is $196. Of course it gets cheaper the more you buy - you can get 1 foot by 16 feet for less than $1000!
I'd guess that 6u, 3u, or thinner material would be even more expensive.
Son of Mixerman
Mix Junior
Its always going to be a split market. Those people who are buying the cheaper Chinese variants were not going to be buying the high end mics anyway. Does Mercedes care that I drive an import? Not really. They realize that poor people can only buy what they can afford. Custom race cars are similar. If your trying to compete in NASCAR, well you have to have the money and resources to do that. Same with recording. The level of your gear has alot to do with what you can afford, if your poor then your not in the market for a $10,000 mic are you? Even if you did get the mic, there is no guarantee it will work for you in a way to justify the cost.
Lets talk quality within the context of budget.
Without the cheap stuff, alot of up and coming studios would never have even gotten started. I can record an entire band with a single mic, and 1 track and no outboard gear. Everything else is just fluff.
SoMm
Lets talk quality within the context of budget.
Without the cheap stuff, alot of up and coming studios would never have even gotten started. I can record an entire band with a single mic, and 1 track and no outboard gear. Everything else is just fluff.
SoMm
A
acorec
Banned
Han said:
I can definately answer this. Neumann was sold a while ago. The people who COULD build the old mics left! The answer is: Neumann (as it is today) do not know how to build the great old mics.
I worked for a company that used to make a certain product for use in semiconductor manufacturing. This company was THE ONLY GAME in the world. Anyway, they sold out to a larger company and all of the design engineers left. The company went on to try to make the same old product, but the product was not the same and did not function as well. Much of the expertise was lost and no one really understood the old product.
Neumann U87s look the same but do not function the same for the reason above. I think (I could be wrong) that you WILL find the good old Neumann mics being made by the good old Neumann people under the name Gefell (sp?). That is where you will find the old "Neumann" mics now.
A
acorec
Banned
randyfromde said:
I have old and new SGs and Les Pauls. They are all different. The sound is a culmination of a few dozens things in any given guitar. My 1997 SG standard sounds better than my 1961 SG custom/SG Les paul. Some 1961 SGs will sound better than others. Some will sound worse. Aging in the wood does have some impact on sound.
D
DJL
Self Banned
"There's something that I don't get, why are manufacturers like AKG and Neumann unable to remake the great mics they used to make a long time ago?"
I pretty much agree with what everyone above said about this... but, I'd also think it has to do with the lost of craftmmanship and pride that seems to have been lost over the years. At one time the masters made things to last longer than a life time.
I pretty much agree with what everyone above said about this... but, I'd also think it has to do with the lost of craftmmanship and pride that seems to have been lost over the years. At one time the masters made things to last longer than a life time.
Son of Mixerman
Mix Junior
DJL said:
I think there is alot tribal knowledge or undocumented tweeks that happen and sooner or later the guy or gal doing their thing moves on or dies. For example...when Stephen Paul passed away, there was instantly a impact to the entire mic industry. Also some of the little things disappear on the market, once simple capacitor can lead to a complete destruction of a mic. The butterfly effect if you will.
SoMm
H
Han
New member
Interesting thoughts guys, but how is it possible that we can bring a robot on Mars and we can not re-make a microphone that sound as good as fifty, I say FIFTY years ago.
I can understand that nobody can make a violin sound as good as a Stradivari, but a freaking microphone.
Yo, and Flatpicker, "For example, the tube used in the original U47 doesn’t exist anymore".
The VF14 tube is still available as far as I know, it may be very expensive, but there must be a lot of them tubes in Eastern Europe.
Peace.
I can understand that nobody can make a violin sound as good as a Stradivari, but a freaking microphone.
Yo, and Flatpicker, "For example, the tube used in the original U47 doesn’t exist anymore".
The VF14 tube is still available as far as I know, it may be very expensive, but there must be a lot of them tubes in Eastern Europe.
Peace.
D
DJL
Self Banned
You know what would be neat... if those who disagree with the articles above would write the authors... I think it would be interesting to hear/read the authors response. 
F
Flatpicker
...
Not for new production it's not, which is what I meant by "it doesn't exist..." Only a small quantity of NOS are available and from what I can tell they're $1500 and up. I can't remember where I read it and don't have time to dig, but seems like they're not even the same as the originals Neumann used.Han said:
B
billisa
New member
Whether it's recording gear, cameras, golf clubs, tennis rackets, dive computers, etc, I think it is fair to say that the capability/price ratio has gotten much better/more accessible than it used to be.
I still have a JVC KD2 portable stereo cassette deck that I paid $300. for in 1977. I used it professionally for on location radio interviews and personally for fun as well. Today, a Fostex MR8 sells for $300. and completely outclasses my old JVC -- along with my TEAC 1230 of the same general era.
I still have an early model Olympus OM1. The shutter is the smoothest I've ever come across. But here again, today's cameras costing the same now as the OM1 did in '78 are way more capable than the OM1 ever was (though not as solid). Used to be a good camera would cost several weeks wages. Today, in the hands of a skilled user, as $250. camera can take absolutely gorgeous images... I wouldn't take one in a war zone, but I'd be very happy most everywhere else.
Teaching tennis for too many of my early years, I can now easily purchase a racket for $60. that would completely outclass and outlast what I used in college costing the same money.
My sense is that computer aided design and manufacture, better materials, and wider labor markets have all combined to make many pursuits much, much more affordable for a much wider group of people.
Whether people care as much about what they're making, I can't say. I will say I can't recall the last time I saw a TV repair truck out to fix anything, big screen/small screen, whatever... But when I was a kid, it wasn't unusual to have the TV repair guy out to replace tubes, then IC's, etc, at least once or twice a year. Now I have a 12 year old Toshiba 19" that just won't die (purchased at Sound Playground for $269., it's never needed service) Today, the same cash will get me a 32" flat CRT model.
I for one tend to think favorably on buying items made in an increasingly world market. It's not perfect by any means, but it never was.
I remember being criticised for buying Yamahas and TEACs and JVCs and Toshibas, but I couldn't afford Macintosh or other US made item, not even close. So these other brands gave me an "in" on a lifetime of musical enjoyment. Today I have a Harman-Kardon receiver made in Korea. Several years old, daily use, no problems -- best I've ever yet owned.
I do think patent infringement is a serious issue, among other issues that aren't new. That aside, outside of a given lens, or particular mic, in general I wouldn't go back to using what we had in the '70's for all the tea in Starbucks. I think for the art of recording, among other things, we live in wonderful times of unheard of opportunity.
I still have a JVC KD2 portable stereo cassette deck that I paid $300. for in 1977. I used it professionally for on location radio interviews and personally for fun as well. Today, a Fostex MR8 sells for $300. and completely outclasses my old JVC -- along with my TEAC 1230 of the same general era.
I still have an early model Olympus OM1. The shutter is the smoothest I've ever come across. But here again, today's cameras costing the same now as the OM1 did in '78 are way more capable than the OM1 ever was (though not as solid). Used to be a good camera would cost several weeks wages. Today, in the hands of a skilled user, as $250. camera can take absolutely gorgeous images... I wouldn't take one in a war zone, but I'd be very happy most everywhere else.
Teaching tennis for too many of my early years, I can now easily purchase a racket for $60. that would completely outclass and outlast what I used in college costing the same money.
My sense is that computer aided design and manufacture, better materials, and wider labor markets have all combined to make many pursuits much, much more affordable for a much wider group of people.
Whether people care as much about what they're making, I can't say. I will say I can't recall the last time I saw a TV repair truck out to fix anything, big screen/small screen, whatever... But when I was a kid, it wasn't unusual to have the TV repair guy out to replace tubes, then IC's, etc, at least once or twice a year. Now I have a 12 year old Toshiba 19" that just won't die (purchased at Sound Playground for $269., it's never needed service) Today, the same cash will get me a 32" flat CRT model.
I for one tend to think favorably on buying items made in an increasingly world market. It's not perfect by any means, but it never was.
I remember being criticised for buying Yamahas and TEACs and JVCs and Toshibas, but I couldn't afford Macintosh or other US made item, not even close. So these other brands gave me an "in" on a lifetime of musical enjoyment. Today I have a Harman-Kardon receiver made in Korea. Several years old, daily use, no problems -- best I've ever yet owned.
I do think patent infringement is a serious issue, among other issues that aren't new. That aside, outside of a given lens, or particular mic, in general I wouldn't go back to using what we had in the '70's for all the tea in Starbucks. I think for the art of recording, among other things, we live in wonderful times of unheard of opportunity.
noisedude
New member
My 2p on the cheap/expensive thing:
If the expensive stuff continues to be better than the cheap stuff (that's to say, if the cheap companies don't catch up too much) I think the market will be the same for the high end stuff.
When I bought a Yamaha Pacifica I loved it but immediately aspired to something that played and sounded better.
The same is true of cheap chinese stuff, and behringer, and, god help us, Phonic.
The problem is when a guy with a pile of cheap mics goes in to the shop and asks what the next up in the range is. The guy says "this one's the industry standard and has been for 25 years" and the customer says "i don't want a 25 year-old mic, i want a new one".
See what i mean?
If the expensive stuff continues to be better than the cheap stuff (that's to say, if the cheap companies don't catch up too much) I think the market will be the same for the high end stuff.
When I bought a Yamaha Pacifica I loved it but immediately aspired to something that played and sounded better.
The same is true of cheap chinese stuff, and behringer, and, god help us, Phonic.
The problem is when a guy with a pile of cheap mics goes in to the shop and asks what the next up in the range is. The guy says "this one's the industry standard and has been for 25 years" and the customer says "i don't want a 25 year-old mic, i want a new one".
See what i mean?
D
Dot
New member
That article mimics some ideas expressed by Hugh Robjohns on the SOS forums
back in December http://sound-on-sound2.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=215094572&f=6403071752&m=7713028647
I think the entire premise is ridiculous - as if some of the high-end mic companies should be treated as charities so they can stay afloat.
Actually, the overall market for microphones is today much larger than in the past. And people still buy high-end mics. The new - and much larger - project-studio market segment didn't even exist ten years ago.
Interesting tidbit: Many of the R&D advances in German mics occured around the time of the world wars and were subsidized by the German government with money that they stole from other people and countries.
Dan Richards
The Listening Sessions
The Project Studio Handbook
back in December http://sound-on-sound2.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=215094572&f=6403071752&m=7713028647
I think the entire premise is ridiculous - as if some of the high-end mic companies should be treated as charities so they can stay afloat.
Actually, the overall market for microphones is today much larger than in the past. And people still buy high-end mics. The new - and much larger - project-studio market segment didn't even exist ten years ago.
Interesting tidbit: Many of the R&D advances in German mics occured around the time of the world wars and were subsidized by the German government with money that they stole from other people and countries.
Dan Richards
The Listening Sessions
The Project Studio Handbook
M
mrface2112
Well-known member
<<"i don't want a 25 year-old mic, i want a new one".>>
LOL
that reminds me of the line from The Jerk, where steve martin says "don't bring me any of that old wine, bring me your newest and freshest".
i think a lot of this is education. people (and i don't mean people HERE) who only have $100 and want the best mic for that. they're largely swayed by marketing. what's been on the first inside page of the last several issues of Recording i've gotten? the m-audio Luna and Solaris. are they any good? remains to be seen. but they're certainly getting pimped hard. and i'm sure a lot of uneducated people are buying them. the same with behringer gear at guitar center.
simply put, people need to understand that there's a reason the RE20 and SM7 are "classic" mics--they're GOOD. they're also dependable and with proper care and maint, will work for many, many, many years. the same goes for vintage tube mics, pres, you name it. the same can't be said for a lot of the inexpensive gear--it's not built to the same standards and workmanship....if it were, it wouldn't be inexpensive.
now, the inexpensive gear (mxl, studio projects, etc), has indeed allowed people like myself to get into recording at a previously unheard of cash committment level. I've been thrilled with the "bang for the buck" i've gotten out of my B1 and 603's. but do i consider them on the same field as a set of KM84s or josephson c42s? absolutely not. that's where education and experience come in.
and at the same time, it's made me long even more to have those KM84s that i've wanted for quite some time. and i WILL have them. it's just that $1000+ for a set of mics is a bit out of my grasp at the moment (and has been and will be for a while). however, i COULD swing $150 for a pair of 603's that do a "fine" job, and that simple fact has allowed me to record while i'm saving up for the "real" gear.
i CAN tell you that the people i work with, record on the side, and play my recordings for are all amazed at the quality and sound of what i've recorded (you did this at home?!?!). for me, that's my goal--to have recordings whose quality (or lack thereof) doesn't immediately piss me off (as it did with a portastudio and sm58), and that I can play for people and be proud of.
sure i'll be even more proud of them when my room's finished and i'm recording with nicer mics into some really great pres, but for now, the inexpensive stuff is allowing me to do something at home, at 2am that before i had to book time at a "real" project studio at $35-50 an hour. i'd FAR rather spend that money on my own gear and handle this myself.
wade
LOL
that reminds me of the line from The Jerk, where steve martin says "don't bring me any of that old wine, bring me your newest and freshest".
i think a lot of this is education. people (and i don't mean people HERE) who only have $100 and want the best mic for that. they're largely swayed by marketing. what's been on the first inside page of the last several issues of Recording i've gotten? the m-audio Luna and Solaris. are they any good? remains to be seen. but they're certainly getting pimped hard. and i'm sure a lot of uneducated people are buying them. the same with behringer gear at guitar center.
simply put, people need to understand that there's a reason the RE20 and SM7 are "classic" mics--they're GOOD. they're also dependable and with proper care and maint, will work for many, many, many years. the same goes for vintage tube mics, pres, you name it. the same can't be said for a lot of the inexpensive gear--it's not built to the same standards and workmanship....if it were, it wouldn't be inexpensive.
now, the inexpensive gear (mxl, studio projects, etc), has indeed allowed people like myself to get into recording at a previously unheard of cash committment level. I've been thrilled with the "bang for the buck" i've gotten out of my B1 and 603's. but do i consider them on the same field as a set of KM84s or josephson c42s? absolutely not. that's where education and experience come in.
and at the same time, it's made me long even more to have those KM84s that i've wanted for quite some time. and i WILL have them. it's just that $1000+ for a set of mics is a bit out of my grasp at the moment (and has been and will be for a while). however, i COULD swing $150 for a pair of 603's that do a "fine" job, and that simple fact has allowed me to record while i'm saving up for the "real" gear.
i CAN tell you that the people i work with, record on the side, and play my recordings for are all amazed at the quality and sound of what i've recorded (you did this at home?!?!). for me, that's my goal--to have recordings whose quality (or lack thereof) doesn't immediately piss me off (as it did with a portastudio and sm58), and that I can play for people and be proud of.
sure i'll be even more proud of them when my room's finished and i'm recording with nicer mics into some really great pres, but for now, the inexpensive stuff is allowing me to do something at home, at 2am that before i had to book time at a "real" project studio at $35-50 an hour. i'd FAR rather spend that money on my own gear and handle this myself.
wade
C
calidus
New member
ausrock said:Calidus,
Would you care to define "cheap shit" so there can be no misunderstandings.
Rover = prestige???
Ausrock, as you pointed out, I'd better define what I mean by "cheap shit", I meant most of the cheap rip-off gear, which condenser mics are only a tiny fraction of. Looks even cool sometimes, usually sounds like s***.
Well, maybe Rover is not a prestige brand, still I'd rather buy an european car.
noisedude
New member
hmm. maybe but the german brands' new cars are falling through the floor for safety and reliability. now renault and nissan are the same company we may see some quality coming out of france.
but the story is the same - you want quality, go to japan. sorry guys.
but the story is the same - you want quality, go to japan. sorry guys.
S
Sklathill
Soundcard Junkie
Honestly...there aren't a lot of Audio Technica mics I really like. 
Although the latest Sound and Recording mag has an AT demo CD, and the individual mic cuts are quite nice...
Although the latest Sound and Recording mag has an AT demo CD, and the individual mic cuts are quite nice...