Chinese Mic Editorial in Sound on Sound...

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Sklathill

Soundcard Junkie
Actually...two articles. The January article can be accessed for free on their website... http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan....htm?session=1317189a61779f4a5ea0059976c33662

The February article is not free, but I think a bit more interesting, as it takes a look inside SE Electronics, and some neat info about how things work. For example, the head of SEE, trying to make it on their own with higher-end mics, the dude mentions that he has a lifelong contract with his main capsule assembler. He also mentions the typical treatment of the lowest-end mics...

"On the very low-priced models, it is not possible to buy the best parts — the companies who make them must use inexpensive parts, because the cheapest mics leave their factories for maybe 15 or 20 US dollars. Some of the very cheap microphones are not even individually tested — they will make random tests on a batch, and if some of the models that are shipped are faulty, they are simply replaced. Where the microphones are tested, the tolerances are often closer to ±4 percent, even though the spec might be ±2 percent."

An another: "Mr Zou set up the new factory early in 2003, and his approach is slightly unusual for a Chinese company, as he subcontracts all the precision metal parts to specialist companies who have the necessary computer-controlled milling machines to manufacture them to a consistent quality. He also imports the mylar for his diaphragms from the US, and the parts for his printed circuit boards come from Panasonic in Japan. The basic circuit board design is also Japanese, whereas he says many of his competitors use a much older British circuit design. The SE microphone bodies and grilles are made by a different company to the one that seemingly handles everyone else's mic-body business, and yet another specialist facility is used for applying the gold coating to the mylar diaphragms."

Interesting, eh? Don't want to give away the whole article, though...
 
Oh yeah............ I can hardly wait to get that $20 "sound" on my next recording.:rolleyes:
 
Thanks for the link... that's some scary stuff. Think about it... if we don't support the highend stuff, over time they could vanish and all we could have is cheap copies of old stuff that aren't even good copies... that's scary.
 
Its no real shock!..I have a small color TV in my gym thats well over 15 years old, looks as good as the day I got it. also an old pioneer tuner with seperate casette player, and big ol floor speakers all of 20 years old working just fine!.....its just a fact of society today, most stuff is built like crap!..i cant tell you how many of those all in one Aiwa type compact stereos that are good for about 2 years max I've gone through....

have you ever just felt how well built a $79.00 sm57 is when you buy a new one? you kinda forget how solid of a build it or an sm58 is. probably the best budget mics on the planet. I guess there's a reason they've been around for so long.

as with everything in our society, customer service and quality products are dissapearing. its certainly not the norm!

sorry for the rant, but that article hit home for me!
 
Bobalou said:
Its no real shock!..I have a small color TV in my gym thats well over 15 years old, looks as good as the day I got it. also an old pioneer tuner with seperate casette player, and big ol floor speakers all of 20 years old working just fine.
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I have a second pair of monitors that I have running in to an old JVC stereo receiver that my parents bought in 1977 (When the original Star Wars came out). :D Damn thing still works great -- every bit as good as my powered monitors.
 
DJL said:
Thanks for the link... that's some scary stuff. Think about it... if we don't support the highend stuff, over time they could vanish and all we could have is cheap copies of old stuff that aren't even good copies... that's scary.
Click to expand...
Naw, don't believe that stuff. That would only happen if China started building a better mic than Europe, and then who would care? People will always pay more for higher quality. Besides, companies like Neumann have never been dependent on low-budget, home recording users anyway.

I don't really buy stuff that about saving R&D $ by using someone else’s design, either. The "design" they're using is 50 or so years old and has long since been compensated for. Aside from that, most of the companies using China labor (Marshall, SP, Rode, GT, etc...) have their own design teams and are churning out their own designs right and left. Trust me, if these designs "belong" to anyone, they are getting some nice royalties for them.
 
I agree that China is generally churning out a lot of mics that are blatantly violating "trademarks" of known brands. But that's a different issue from the "mic designs" (a patent issue). I agree with Flatpicker's notion that there is not anything inherently wrong with a later company using (even exactly) the technology of yesteryear's mic. In fact, this sort of use is precisely what patent law had in mind.

Today, patents are good for 20 years from the time of initial application. Once that 20 years expires, the law both expects and encourages people to use those patents, whether US citizens or foreign nationals. A lot of folks try to make this an ethical problem when it is in fact what the law seeks to have happen. In other industries (like the pharmaceutical industry) it's how we eventually get generic products (and lower prices for those generics). All of this is part of the grand scheme of capitalism. Give inventors a competitive advantage by locking out competition for a limited time. Then, once the advantage expires give the invention to the public (for its free use by competitors)...see Article I section 8 of the Constitution.

Good mics (as far as sound) will never go out of business or style. Things will indeed change for the big mic companies like Neumann and AKG. They won't have the stranglehold that they once had on the mic industry. But it's a far more complicated story than simply blaming it on China. You've got to add in that the big mic companies have basically sat on their hands for the last few years producing either crap (AKG C3000), bad rehashes (AKG C12 vr--no one thinks this sounds anywhere like a real C12, Neumann M147, KM184--decent but no 84) or relying on their classic designs (AKG 414, Neumann U87). You've also got to add in newer companies like Soundelux, Brauner, Royer, B.L.U.E. etc. Plus, the market for recording products has widened significantly.

It would be really easy to just blame it on China, but the story is so very much more complicated than that gross simplification. Plus, I don't know too many people who "know better" who are seriously entertaining ideas of selling their vintage or high quality mic collection to buy a whole boatload of Chinese knockoffs.
 
I was sort of surprised by the sonics of some of the Chinese mics when I started buying mics for the home studio. However, they made me hungry for something more. I think this process benefits the entire market as a person might start out with an MXL mic but this purchase primes the pump for later purchases from so-called "better" manufacturers.
 
Flatpicker said:

<snip>
I don't really buy stuff that about saving R&D $ by using someone else’s design, either. The "design" they're using is 50 or so years old and has long since been compensated for. Aside from that, most of the companies using China labor (Marshall, SP, Rode, GT, etc...) have their own design teams and are churning out their own designs right and left.
<snip>
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I think some would like us to believe that they had an R&D design team... but I think at one time some basically only had someone modifying off the shelf mics for them... if even that. But some are now getting R&D design teams. But thanks for sharing your opinion with me. :)
 
Sklathill,
Who's all selling the mylar for diaphragms in the US? Thanks.
 
The risk with any article of this nature is that it may spawn even more rumours and half-truths than we already face.

The Asian manufacturers aren't interested in business ethics and are unlikely to say anything to anyone that may jeopodise their business......consequently, I tend to regard any quotes in that SOS article with some scepticism.

While they could get away with it, any mic company who was sourcing mics or components from Asia, either conveniently didn't mention it, mentioned only half of it or marketed under a teutonic sounding brand name. To my knowledge, and I may be wrong, Studio Projects was the first to openly acknowledge the source of their mics from day one. ADK worked the "AudioDeutscheKraft" thing as long as they could. Rode either steadfastly avoided telling people that their capsules (and maybe other components) were from China OR the past CEO and founder would say straight out that they imported all their parts...go figure......and so it goes on.

"Editorials" such as this should be taken with a grain of salt.



:cool:
 
Which is why I mention the second article, which observes some of the realities going on from someone actually involved... some nice photos in there, and some things that do reinforce the idea that those Chinese guys (or, at least, SEE) are trying for something more. There's a nice shot of a tube mic they're designing with two 12AU7s in the body. (one big fat body on that thing, and a big fat (I'm guessing 1.25) capsule to boot, if I'm properly remembering the mic design they're talking about that I saw at AES...)

Anyone gotta chance to read the February article?
 
There's something that I don't get, why are manufacturers like AKG and Neumann unable to remake the great mics they used to make a long time ago?

This is not limited to the mic manufacturers, why does my 1961 Gibson SG sounds a lot better than any of the SG's from the last say 15-20 years?

Why is the JCM800 the last Marshall amp that sounds decent?

About the Chinese mics; if you try them with your own voice, you may find them sound pretty good. You will not hear much difference between a Neumann M149 and an MXL V77.

But lately I've recorded quite some jazz and used the mics like V77, V69 and a couple of SP mics on upright bass, sax and clarinet, next to the Neumann.

If I compare the sounds in solo with my eyes closed, not knowing which mic I'm hearing, I always find the best sound. And when I open my eyes it's always the Neumann.

I'm not saying the budget mics sound bad, nor am I saying the expensive German mics sound as good as the old mics like U47, U67, KM84, to name a few.

I've listened to Karen Carpenter's 'Close to you', man, what a great sound. U47?
 
DJL said:
... but I think at one time some basically only had someone modifying off the shelf mics for them...
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The bodies and capsules are off-the-shelf. As far as I know, the capsules only come from two companies - 797 and the one in Shanghai. But after the early Shanghai mics (MXL 2001 and equivalent), much of the electronics is not off the shelf anymore. Lots of R&D goes into the development of the circuits used in them.

And before we get into a “what’s modified” vs. “what’s designed” debate, remember that Neumann and AKG didn’t exactly invent tube and FET amplifiers either. ;)
 
Most of this has all been discussed before and I don't have the need to search out old threads.

Sklat,

My point was that even someone actually involved may not give reliable information. OR heaven forbid, the "reporter" may have only used portions of the aforesaid information in the article, that he considered relevant..........in the sense that they were relevant to the story in a literary sense. The Asian manufacturers can feed any information out to publications and make any claims regarding R & D, subcontacting, parts quality, etc. etc., that they wish and it is almost impossible to prove or disprove..............did the author personally visit the factories, did he take the photos, did he personally interview Mr. Zou.....or did all this information come from a controlled press/media package. Creating and maintaining a deception is easy..........FFS, Rode did it for years and people are still buying their older models mics thinking they are getting an all Australian product.



:cool:
 
DJL said:
Thanks for the link... that's some scary stuff. Think about it... if we don't support the highend stuff, over time they could vanish and all we could have is cheap copies of old stuff that aren't even good copies... that's scary.
Click to expand...

of course it's awful with so much cheap shit being shipped from the East,

and I'm sick of the cheap sales pitches coming with these mics, "......that we usually see in microphones that cost 4 or 5 times....bla bla...."

though I don't agree with you; the highend stuff will not vanish, as there's a market for it as well. If one can afford the quality and the prestige of a Rover or a Mercedes, then he'd never buy a cheapo japanese city-car, not even to his wife.
 
"There's something that I don't get, why are manufacturers like AKG and Neumann unable to remake the great mics they used to make a long time ago?

This is not limited to the mic manufacturers, why does my 1961 Gibson SG sounds a lot better than any of the SG's from the last say 15-20 years?

Why is the JCM800 the last Marshall amp that sounds decent?"

Availability of components, aging?
 
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