China gear group buy - Via Alan Hyatt??

[tarnationsauce2]

Any one else see that Alan Hyatt of PMI audio is starting a group buy of Chinese made gear (that has yet to be designed)?

I think it's GREAT that more manufacturers are taking the group buy thing seriously. Especially when the community gets to have a say in the design of the gear!
But getting hundreds of gear nuts to agree on a limited amount of products will be interesting.

I'm not really interested in the whole soap opera from the past. Let's pipe dream of gear that we want.


p.s. I know with the new moderation around here that it is pretty touchy what is considered advertising and what isn't. If a mod construes this as an advert please feel free to delete it. But I really just want to see what the community has to say.

 

[mshilarious]

It ain't an ad unless Alan Hyatt posts it . . . however, info on group buys that aren't for microphones are going to get moved to The Rack, and nonprofit organization of group buys will be moved to Free Ads, so please clarify if necessary.

 

[tarnationsauce2]

Hmm, he mentions mics, pres, & compressors. And this is Alan Hyatt... I highly doubt it's not for profit.

If you think the thread should be moved, go ahead and put it in the appropriate place.

 

[kojdogg]

i'm interested, though i wouldn't be surprised if i get the stuff, try it out and end up selling it like i did with the chance gb stuff. i tried to register on the pmi forum, but i couldn't get a capcha image-- weird. i definitely agree with the types of things i saw you post on the pmi thread, though i'd be wary of plugging a 500 module into my lunchbox given the qc problems that occurred with the rack pres...

 

[kojdogg]

also it occurs to me that this also probably may be a wise move on ah's part if this is one way that home recording audio gear consumerism is going to be shifting. it reminds me a bit of the whole physical music distributable vs. digital music download thing. if this is going to be a trend, then you'd rather be the itunes store than the zune store.

 

[mshilarious]

Hmm, he mentions mics, pres, & compressors. And this is Alan Hyatt... I highly doubt it's not for profit.

Right, but you are not Alan Hyatt. So it's no different than somebody talking about an SM58 they want to buy.

That said, if it looks to turn into a 100 page thread about buying compressors, I will move it then.

 

[mshilarious]

also it occurs to me that this also probably may be a wise move on ah's part if this is one way that home recording audio gear consumerism is going to be shifting. it reminds me a bit of the whole physical music distributable vs. digital music download thing. if this is going to be a trend, then you'd rather be the itunes store than the zune store.

Backing up a step, every manufacturer already does "group buys", they are just called quantity discounts Fulfillment is a bit of a twist; traditionally manufacturers are good at production and distributors are good at fulfillment. But fulfillment is trivial to develop compared with manufacturing, and the carriers are eager to provide tools to facilitate that.

The threat is to middleman who are neither--they buy generic Chinese goods in bulk and distribute to retailers. They have little to offer and the internet is merciless at eliminating inefficiencies.

AH is somewhere in between as he drives production of his goods. He is probably looking at this as free money, in that he doesn't have to give a cut to retailers nor pay for advertising. And if GS or somewhere else lets him promote it for free, more power to him.

He has his own board, so he doesn't really need anywhere else for transactional discussion. That's a positive in my book.

 

[kojdogg]

still sticking to 'there's nothing new here' and 'the brand name guys aren't alarmed at all by the chance group buy' i see
well you could very well be right, but if nothing else if he does this regularly for a few times the infrastructure he already has, it could help obscure the emerging tnc brand whether that's by design or as a collateral impact

 

[mshilarious]

still sticking to 'there's nothing new here' and 'the brand name guys aren't alarmed at all by the chance group buy' i see

That's not what I said at all. What is unclear about "The threat is to middleman who are neither--they buy generic Chinese goods in bulk and distribute to retailers. They have little to offer and the internet is merciless at eliminating inefficiencies."

 

[kojdogg]

That's not what I said at all. What is unclear about "The threat is to middleman who are neither--they buy generic Chinese goods in bulk and distribute to retailers. They have little to offer and the internet is merciless at eliminating inefficiencies."

You're right on that-- my apologies. I misread the first paragraph of that last post you made as being in line with a few of your previous posts in previous threads on the subject like this one (particularly the last paragraph, but I don't want to take anything out of context):
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=3123014&postcount=49
I'm showing some ignorance here-- obviously not being any part of the gear "biz." I tend to still think of the folks like Nady and PMI as "manufacturers" when they are really increasingly or entirely importers, or "middlemen"

 

[mshilarious]

You're right on that-- my apologies. I misread the first paragraph of that last post you made as being in line with a few of your previous posts in previous threads on the subject like this one (particularly the last paragraph, but I don't want to take anything out of context):
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=3123014&postcount=49
I'm showing some ignorance here-- obviously not being any part of the gear "biz." I tend to still think of the folks like Nady and PMI as "manufacturers" when they are really increasingly or entirely importers, or "middlemen"

Well that's what we've learned in the past five years, isn't it? Many if not most though Nady was a manufacturer when they first brought out the cheap ribbons. Whose idea was it? John Nady's? The Chinese? I don't know, but it's everybody's idea now.

But along comes everybody else, and the price of these mics/preamps will be pushed very close to the cost of doing business (Chance sold at below true cost, which he is learning now). All of these importers threaten each other's business because they are totally unable to differentiate their product--see the rather hilarious Gauge thread. If they had that microphone as their primary source of income, I doubt they'd last long--charging a premium price for a generic product without advertising is not the best business model ever!

Back to Hyatt, what is his motivation? Probably it is complex; life usually is. But he isn't going to do a group buy for his own products, because he isn't stupid. He also feels that his products are differentiated from the generic Chinese mics, and he is probably right. So he doesn't feel threatened by a group buy, instead he feels threatened by the hundreds of other importers selling what he views as nondifferentiated, inferior products. He needs to convince people to step up the couple of bucks to SP.

What does he do? He does a (many) well-run group buy(s) for all of his lower-end competitors' products, driving down their profit margins to zero. Short-term loss maybe, but long-term gain as goodwill builds towards all things PMI. That's the Dr. Evil case analysis, anyway.

In the end, the Wal-Mart model will prevail: the only low-end brands left standing will be stuff like T-Bone or the GC house brand if they have one. Large retailers who can bypass middleman and dictate pricing will win. Manufacturers who can control production (PMI, Behringer, etc.) should be OK so long as they can differentiate their products--shocking to think of that with Behringer, but it's true, they have lots and lots of cheap products that other importers can't get because Behri runs their own Chinese factory.

 

[MichaelJoly]

Brilliant analysis.

Around the time of the Tape Op group buy I suggested here and at TOMB that Nady et al might want to look into the prospect of using group buys as a "secondary business model" - for both the offensive and defensive reasons Mshilarious sites above.

Looks like it took the results of Chance's / TnC's activities for a major player to see some value in controlling how a group buy goes down - instead of trying to prevent them.

 

[kojdogg]

Do you guys watch The Office? It's (TnC) kind of like the Michael Scott Paper Company effect

 

[MCI2424]

Any one else see that Alan Hyatt of PMI audio is starting a group buy of Chinese made gear (that has yet to be designed)?

I think it's GREAT that more manufacturers are taking the group buy thing seriously. Especially when the community gets to have a say in the design of the gear!
But getting hundreds of gear nuts to agree on a limited amount of products will be interesting.

I'm not really interested in the whole soap opera from the past. Let's pipe dream of gear that we want.


p.s. I know with the new moderation around here that it is pretty touchy what is considered advertising and what isn't. If a mod construes this as an advert please feel free to delete it. But I really just want to see what the community has to say.

"Group Buy" is just a modern name to get around the spam rules. There is always a profit. No one in their right mind would put that kind of work into anything like this without making a profit somewhere.

 

[ausrock]

I'll stick my nose in here with a couple of points..................

Alan and I started discussing the possibility of a GB at least 12 months ago, so it's far from something new for him.

If it goes ahead, I'll probably handle the Aust., end of things.

Will there be a profit?.........Well I believe anyone in their right mind would need to cover costs.

I would like to think that the admin/mods here will allow reasonable discussion in the best interests of the members so long as transactional stuff is dealt with elsewhere.

 

[kojdogg]

Will there be a profit?.........Well I believe anyone in their right mind would need to cover costs.

That's not necessarily profit.

 

[ausrock]

Out of respect for the HR "standards" we've tried to keep this from dominating the forum but due to "web server" issues with PMI's forums, there is a thread now running at G/slutz........... http://www.gearslutz.com/board/low-...yatt-organized-group-buy-thread-new-post.html

 

[noisedude]

I'll stick my nose in here with a couple of points..................

Alan and I started discussing the possibility of a GB at least 12 months ago, so it's far from something new for him.

If it goes ahead, I'll probably handle the Aust., end of things.

Will there be a profit?.........Well I believe anyone in their right mind would need to cover costs.

I would like to think that the admin/mods here will allow reasonable discussion in the best interests of the members so long as transactional stuff is dealt with elsewhere.

My whole point about Chance's "not for profit" line is that what you call the "need to cover costs" would (in my world anyway) include money for my time, because my time spent packing and labelling etc is worth something. That pay IS the profit, you decide whether you are willing to do it for a certain amount of money, if you are and people buy then the deal is on.

Bottom line - of COURSE you should be remunerated for your time, same for Alan and his staff. Any hippies demanding altruists giving their time and effort for nothing can go elsewhere.

In reference to your final point, I would suggest that this is the ideal scenario for HR actually - the community can take part in a group buy but there is a very clear line of communication with the facilitators of the purchase. People can chat about products here, and business is conducted with a known entity who has their own phone line and forum. Why wouldn't we be OK with that?

But then, being a mod both here and at PMI, I was always going to be fairly sympathetic, right?

 

[Big Kenny]

"Group Buy" is just a modern name to get around the spam rules. There is always a profit. No one in their right mind would put that kind of work into anything like this without making a profit somewhere.

Where did you get the impression that Chance was "in his right mind"?

 

[slobbermonster]

you guys actually think CHance was "nonprofit" ? Hmmmm i've got some beach front property in Wyoming I'd like to sell you