china cat sunflower - take II

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heatmiser

heatmiser

mr. green christmas
Hey,

No new original material to work with now, so I used this cover as a vehicle to try get back to playing guitar more and work on some basic recording ideas.

I've been doing a lot of layering of parts and effects going for a big sound lately, and this is more of an effort to focus on just playing guitar and getting a good basic sound. I used two mics for each guitar part and didn't punch in or layer mutiple takes as I guess I was going for more of a natural band performance kind of sound. Vocals don't work so well here, but they're more a place-keeper than anything else on this tune anyway.

I did share a version of this a year or so ago, but it was with a drum machine on cassette tape and I never really bothered to learn the guitar parts properly. I think this one is much better? Check it out and let me know what you're hearing if you have a spare moment...

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=660667&songID=9695274
 
You definitely have the guitar tone down and all the different parts. The song has so much going on and you've pretty nailed it musically. Some good Phil Lesh style bass playin'. Love it.

The song puts you in the low end of your singing range and can hear you struggle a little. Probably too late now, but shifting up a half or whole step would help a lot.

I'm not crazy about the drums. It needs a lot of fills and variations.

I vaguely remember your China Cat post last year. It's great to hear more Dead covers around here.
 
the guitars sound really great in this...I dont know any "dead" stuff, but I dont imagine this is a direct translation is it?

nice mellow playing...bass cool, drums sounded OK to me seemed to go with the whole mellowness, maybe a little quiet

I get what chilli says about you vocals, this is at the bottom end of your register...at they moment they sound like they are the second layer to something higher up...a female singing alongside would produce something excellent...its a pity theres not more girls here to get collabs like this going...it really would finish this off imho

forgot to say very clean mix, no nits apart from maybe the drum volume..not really sure though

great work :)
 
it sounds good

i thought the vocal could be a little louder

nice guitar playing and bass too
 
I haven't read any of the previous comments, because it usually taints my ears... So... Going a-fresh...

Dude... Drums sounds awesome. Those have got to be real, and whoever is playin' em' knows their shiz. *Great* sounding drums.

Guitars are some of the best I've heard. So warm sounding, and groovy. Nothing harsh at all about this recording. I actually found it quite difficult to remember I was supposed to be listening to critique. I got wrapped up in the music easily.

The levels are good, but during the verses, the right-hand guitar covers just a tad bit too much of the vocals. But since you said the vocals are nothing but a place-holder, I wouldn't change a thing.

Very nice recording. I love it.
 
Oh yeah, this sounds great now, Pete.
The guitars sound delicious and the drums sound real good. (they are real, aren't they?) I Love the groovy, bouncy feel of this. I thought the voice sounded pretty good and anyway Mr Garcia's voice was not the best in the world...;) The mix is beautiful, totally clean and shiny.
 
This just sounds awesome, not sure what else to say. Nothing to nitpick for me, personally, maybe the vocal coming up in the mix a touch. The instrumentation sounds great, both the playing and the sound.
 
Like everyone else I thought the guitars sounded really good. I liked the parts and the playing too.

I think the vocal could come up a good 2-3 dbs. The vocal also sounded a bit on the dry side compared to the instruments. I wonder if you could pull off a better vocal performance. The performance is a little pedestrian.

The drums were OK, but sounded a little programmy.

I heard a couple of pops between 2:25 and 2:50 or so. During the guitar break.
 
Thanks for all the feedback. Sorry I didn't respond sooner but I was pretty bummed about how the vocals turned out and wanted to redeem myself by posting a new mix with killer vocals, but it is not to be. In general, you're confirming what I thought: guitars and bass = pretty good / drums & vocals = not so good. I am happy that my efforts with the guitar sounds seemed to pay off, so hopefully I learned something from this one.

Chili - While I like the drum sounds and am ok with the basic idea, I totally agree that there is a ton lacking here compared with the original. As for the vocals, I have a very deep voice and could actually sing comfortably 1 or 2 octaves below this (but why would I want to?) it's just that I can't go one octave higher which is where this probably needs to be. Thanks for the comments!

KC - Thanks for the good word man. See above re: vocals. Really this is a high tenor part and I think I'm like a baritone or something! Despite my normal penchant for mangling/mutating covers, this is actually very faithful to the orignal. Take away the drums and vocals, and this is pretty much how the tune goes. I improvised all the leads except one signature riff or whatever, but improvised in a manner similar to, but vastly inferior to, the original.

groovy - Thanks for checking it out! Not sure I want these vocals louder, but I think you're right generally speaking.

ido - Thanks man - always encouraging.

P.I. - Thanks so much man. You know, these are actually loops. High quality ones in my opinion, but loops nonetheless. Hence the lack of variation. I did spend time picking the parts and did a lot of processing on the separate drum tracks, so glad it sounds ok. I'm psyched the guitars sound good - that was my primary focus here.

joey - Always good to get the thumbs up from you my man. While clearly not a celebrated vocalist, Jerry's strained tenor always struck me as very heartfelt which goes a long way for me. When he was younger, he could really belt out some inspiring lines...not so much in the later years though. Thanks!

Funk - You rule. Thanks for the encouragement.

TripleM - Thanks for checking in here. I look forward to your critiques. I think you nailed the issues here. I've tried singing this so many times since the first post and it all sounds kinda the same. Frustrating. I probably just need to steer clear of certain covers and stick with songs/keys that are more suited to my deeper voice.

You know, I have this nice vintage guitar and an old tube amp, but I was always recording it with a digital multi-FX pedal in front at super low volumes. It occured to me that I should leave off the pedal and crank the amp as that's why people prize this kind of older gear. As mellow as this sounds, it was tracked at super high volumes which broke up the signal just enough I think to give it more fullness and depth. Watch out neighbors!
 
Sounds good to me. I don't know the original as I'm pretty anti GD, but this mix sounds mostly good. Drum level seems fine to me. Guitars and bass sound great. Vocals could be louder with a little more space/room.
 
Really nice groove, captures that carefree loose groove thats really tight. Up the Vox. Really nice tones/mix. Enjoyed it!
 
Greg_L said:
Sounds good to me. I don't know the original as I'm pretty anti GD, but this mix sounds mostly good. Drum level seems fine to me. Guitars and bass sound great. Vocals could be louder with a little more space/room.
Click to expand...

I think most of this site is pretty anti GD, which is fine. I appreciate you giving it a listen knowning that the material isn't your kind of thing. Working on the vocals...thanks Greg.

PDP said:
Really nice groove, captures that carefree loose groove thats really tight. Up the Vox. Really nice tones/mix. Enjoyed it!
Click to expand...

Cool, thanks PDP. I'm working on the vocals and will post an update if I can improve things any. Simply raising the level of the existing vocals is sounding not so good to me, so I'm trying some other things...
 
I like this one real well with all that is going on with it. I haven't ever heard the dead's version so this is pretty much the original to me. I wouldn't say that I'm anti GD, but I have never owned one of their CD's and I like some of their songs.

I like that you covered this one and posted it here, because I probably still would not have heard it and I can't imagine it being much better than this. Anyhow, I think I might keep this one and maybe update it if you do. :D

Later man.

Trump
 
heatmiser said:
Simply raising the level of the existing vocals is sounding not so good to me, so I'm trying some other things...
Click to expand...

I hear ya, definately an art to getting vocals clearly heard, without them sounding seperate or awkward. I Gotta look into some techniques on how to better acheive that. Anyones knowledge appreciated. ???
 
trumpino1 said:
I like this one real well with all that is going on with it. I haven't ever heard the dead's version so this is pretty much the original to me. I wouldn't say that I'm anti GD, but I have never owned one of their CD's and I like some of their songs.

I like that you covered this one and posted it here, because I probably still would not have heard it and I can't imagine it being much better than this. Anyhow, I think I might keep this one and maybe update it if you do. :D

Later man.

Trump
Click to expand...

Thanks trump! Yeah, this tune is very popular among fans of the band, but not well know at all outside of that. Trust me, when they did this tune it was much better than this, but I've certainly suggested what it sounds like pretty well here. Later!

PDP said:
I hear ya, definately an art to getting vocals clearly heard, without them sounding seperate or awkward. I Gotta look into some techniques on how to better acheive that. Anyones knowledge appreciated. ???
Click to expand...

In this case, I think it's more of a performance issue than a mixing one, so my advice to you - don't ever try to mix vocals that sound anything like mine!
 
Like the arrangement a lot - a bit more C&W than the Dead version. Have you considered adding yourself doing a high harmony to support the vocal?
 
Well done.
I'm not a Deadhead - more because they don't take me where I want psych rock to take me than anything else (& being taht I don't take anything to help me along the way I'm doubly unable to hear the penny drop). I've bought & listened in an attempt to educate myself by to no avail.
I do think Phil Lesh is a great man - his "classical" musical scholarship/mentor program has been going for years and has helped some great & lesser known composers get a hearing for new work.
I can't deny your great playing or musicality with this one mate - truly very well done.
Hey, Elvis Costello was a BIG fan of the Dead!
 
Goldilox said:
Like the arrangement a lot - a bit more C&W than the Dead version. Have you considered adding yourself doing a high harmony to support the vocal?
Click to expand...

Thank you Goldi. I actually hadn't considered that as there aren't any hamronies on the original, but now that you mention it, it seems like a good idea. If I can't sing this melody one octave higher, perhaps I could create a harmony line that is higher than this, but within my range? Kind of a difficult part to harmonize with though...we'll see. Thanks!

rayc said:
Well done.
I'm not a Deadhead - more because they don't take me where I want psych rock to take me than anything else (& being taht I don't take anything to help me along the way I'm doubly unable to hear the penny drop). I've bought & listened in an attempt to educate myself by to no avail.
I do think Phil Lesh is a great man - his "classical" musical scholarship/mentor program has been going for years and has helped some great & lesser known composers get a hearing for new work.
I can't deny your great playing or musicality with this one mate - truly very well done.
Hey, Elvis Costello was a BIG fan of the Dead!
Click to expand...

Thank you ray. Yes, by all accounts Phil is a good dude. He joined the band with a classical background and while I wasn't aware of this scholarship he started, it doesn't surprise me. I guess "Live Dead" didn't quite do it for you, eh? This tune dates back to that era - circa 1969 - hence the nonsensical gibberish lyrics.

I did download the jangly thing a couple of days ago and it is sounding good. I want to listen a few more times though. I'd offer to add something, but it sounds like you have plenty of volunteers!
 
kcearl said:
the guitars sound really great in this...I dont know any "dead" stuff, but I dont imagine this is a direct translation is it?

nice mellow playing...bass cool, drums sounded OK to me seemed to go with the whole mellowness, maybe a little quiet

I get what chilli says about you vocals, this is at the bottom end of your register...at they moment they sound like they are the second layer to something higher up...a female singing alongside would produce something excellent...its a pity theres not more girls here to get collabs like this going...it really would finish this off imho

forgot to say very clean mix, no nits apart from maybe the drum volume..not really sure though

great work :)
Click to expand...

What he said. :D

I like the idea of a female singer. Did you process your vocals differently this time? They sound kind of low in volume and lacking bass. I think the drums and vox could come up. Good job otherwise. ;)
 
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