gullfo
New member
if you read up on the ITU and IEC standards for control rooms, its +/-2db (total 4db deviation) at the mix position. so 3db at one freq and a 1.5db peak at another would be considered pretty flat...
meow.
meow.
R
Rod Gervais
New member
When all was said and done - the owner made a couple of PEQ adjustments and sat within 3dB of perfectly flat.
But there was never a single change to the room acoustic treatments to get there.
Rod
RICK FITZPATRICK
New member
Oh boy....a whole pound!!
What a punishment. Glad I changed it. 703 sucks for dinner.
Seriously, if they can, I'm all ears.
Ok, let me understand you correctly.
Standards? No wonder. Who in the home recording rhelm has access to "standards", unless they are a professional and pay for them. I know acoustic prediction has come a long way since the first edition of Masterhandbook of Acoustics, but this one has escaped me. Probably because I am NOT a pro, and do not have either access or the inclination to follow the acoustics dicipline developments on a pro level. However, I am still interested in current studio/control room design.
When I first started posting here, John Sayers was the resident guru, and one of the first things I began to pursue, was the idea of a "standard". I had asked John why, if LEDE was an actual, provable "standard"(via explanations by Alton Everest of the LEDE "stamp of approval" via tests), then why weren't all pro studio control rooms making use of this so called LEDE "standard"? Much to my surprise, John simply said..."because it DOESN"T WORK"!!
Needless to say, this led me into Alice's rabbit hole for years. To this very day, I've yet to run accross a so called "standard" whereby EVERY control room can be built with confidence that it is doing what it is supposed to do. Fuck. And now, here it is. Too bad I didn't know about this when I started.
My only question is......who is the next person to claim..."it doesn't work!"
That only comes from years of seeing Acoustic dogma reign in studio design. The "diffusion" thing is a perfect example. What a joke. Anyway, thanks for the heads up Rod. Although I doubt at this point it will help my personal endeavor, even if I had access to these "standards", as I've already combed the net for years to assimilate a variety of info as to the "proper", scientific application of acoustic "treatment" of my own room, and haven't any time or money or even the inclination to change it at this point.
HOWEVER, seeing as there is now a "standard" by which EVERYONE, given they have access to these standards, can achieve what everyone has been trying to achieve for as long as I can remember. Dang, if I'd only been born 40 years later. All I can say is....
Guys, now you've heard it from the horses mouth. NO MORE FUCKING AROUND SEARCHING FOR THE TRUTH. Simply find these standards and USE THEM.
One more thing......DRAGON, you better prepare to EITHER "put up, or shut up" ....meaning, at some point, some time, SOMEONE will post these on the forum and either you make it a "STICKY", OR, this forum will become the laughing stock of the net "studio design" community.
Well, that about does it for me.
Spending time trying to help people sort out what is known, what works, what is a lie and what isn't is going to become a thing of the past. Once word gets out about this ...well, its only a matter of time. Ok, lets hear it for Rod and guilfo.
Altogether now....
HIP HIP HURRAY!!!
HIP HIP HURRAY!!!
HIP HIP HURRAY!!!
As a side note, Let me quote Mr. Everest so you understand where I was coming from.
Lets hope that these standards also define how to interprete ones "first attempt"
Thanks Guys.
Adios.
fitZ
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apl
Stand Up Comity
gullfo
New member
there ya go. its that simple. use the standard +/-2db 20hz-20Khz @ mix position = flat. not much more need to said, except maybe time domain issues, no reflections <=15ms > -10db down from direct signal.
how you get there? no one should assume there is a single magic formula which addresses all possible concerns: LEDE, RFZ, ESS, Non-Environment, Treated Rectangle, Outdoor, Anechoic, Complete Diffusion, blah blah blah. these things are people experimenting with construction tactics for getting the room to behave in a way which lets the engineer make good decisions which translates their mixes and mastering efforts onto as many other system as possible. if a 10'x10'x10' concrete cube works for you, and you get platinum sales mixes out of it, then it is the truth. someone else may go into that cube and find they need to change the shape, size, materials, color scheme, equipment, workflow, add a toilet, some thing else, in order for it to work for them.
can you do this magic complete from the design? no. you can make some damn good guesses about how things will behave based on a fairly large collection of information we didn't have 20 years ago, and on some things we've known for 100 and 4000 years. will it be flat upon first measurement? maybe. and if it isn't then the design or strategy is wrong? probably not unless its grossly off. it probably needs some tweaking to find those anomalies which cannot be predicted because of variations in material or constraints in the overall structure/site/space in which this was built.
is a basement studio going to sound as good as a $100M built for purpose studio? no. is the basement studio going to be designed and built and in use long before that $100M studio? yes unless you procrastinate or keep trying to find perfection in something which was unlikely to ever be perfect.
will you produce a mega-hit record in your basement or garage? it's possible. worked for Boston in the 70's. Motown for 15 years in Detroit.
in the end, its about finding a space which mostly meets your needs within your budget and then applying your skills to make the recording.
R
Rod Gervais
New member
Actually the answer to that is "yes you can".
And very successfully.
Here are quotes from my client in the phillipeans, the studio I designed there is a smallish sized studio - enough room for a 5 piece band - seperate iso booth- - and a seperate string room sized for a grand piano:
and
and
As far as the flutter problem he mentioned - before anything he went into the room and clapped his hands in a couple of places - and he thought flutter was going to be an issue. I told him he was mistaken - just set up his room and it wouldn't exist. He proved me right.
So - happy to say that with care and a little bit of foresight - you can get there with a proper design - and not have to worry about adding crap after the fact.
Sincerely,
Rod
gullfo
New member
I believe you can design for a given performance, but unless you're supervising all the work and materials going it, there's no guarantee. even in your example here, there were a couple of tweaks (minor which is what designs should target) but none the less some adjustments. i would say many of my designs fall in this happy circumstance as well but i've had a couple that need adjustments later either due to budget shortfalls requiring re-scoping of the project, or incremental adjustments since we couldn't fully predict some of the behaviors - and both are now also happy once we made adjustments.
suprstar
It aint ez being green
I'll eat a cubic foot of .....
fitZ
Taht'd be one BIG chick.. Any woman with an entire CF of pussy is not one I'd want sitting on MY face.. If there's no snorkel, I think I'll have to eat the 703 instead fitz,
RICK FITZPATRICK
New member
Who says it has to be ONE. And I didn't specify a time limit either
fitZ
And I didn't specify a time limit eitherfitZ
suprstar
It aint ez being green
I have much to learn, o wise one
R
Rod Gervais
New member
Budget shortfalls are not my issue - and I let that be known to owners.
When they provide me with an original budget - and I design to that - I don't want to hear about lack of cash. If they cannot implement what is designed - then they pay me to re-design around their new budget - and that leaves the power of what happens where still in my hands.
As far as predicting some of the behaviors - I don't get exactly what you mean, you can predict the behavior of anything.
Please explain further.
COnstruction control I handle by requiring the owner to provide daily pictures of progress - this after I have gone out of my way to detail every single, possible construction detail that exists on the project. Nothing is left to the imagination.
The owner then takes many MANY pixctures - from every concievable angle - and I perform the inspection comparing the construction against the drawings/details I provided.
When I see something wrong - I simply email the owner - referencing the drawing/detail #, directing them to inform the contractor of the error - and requiring them to demand a fix from the contractor.
I then want pictures following the repair t verify that they got it right in the end.
I make certain my clients are protected by verbiage in thier contract so that the sole cost of modifying or repairing work to make it conform to the contract documents belongs to the contractor - not them.
So far this has worked for me on multiple studios around the world.
Personally I don't consider a room to be off if it's within +/- 3dB......... and adjusting to make it better than that is (IMHO) icing on the cake - and has nothing to do with the cake itself.
I also do not design for anywhere in the room other than the mix position - thus regardless of what exists outside of the mix position - it doesn't affect whether the design is good or not - it is irrelevant.
Sincerely,
Rod
R
Rod Gervais
New member
Glenn,
one other thing here - it was only the control room that any anomoly whatsoever existed (accepted as an anomoly even through it was tiny).
In the tracking roms - they tracked perfectly as designed. No further treatments were required.
Rod
one other thing here - it was only the control room that any anomoly whatsoever existed (accepted as an anomoly even through it was tiny).
In the tracking roms - they tracked perfectly as designed. No further treatments were required.
Rod
RICK FITZPATRICK
New member
Rod, I hate to say it, but something tells me you're engineering psych is overtaking your your rationality. As far as that statement is concerned, let me ask you. What is the next move the Federal Reserve is going to make. If you can predict that...then you know something that is .well..lets put it this way, ever heard of Misprison of Felony?
R
Rod Gervais
New member
LMFAO............
Rick - I mean acoustic properties - but yes - the statement was a little broad at that......... thanks for dragging my fat happy arse back down to earth.
Nope - I have no prior knowledge of any felonies taking place - so I can't see how I might be charged.
LOL
Rod
RICK FITZPATRICK
New member
Hey loopybeats. (now there's a real winner of a name)
You wouldn't know a real beat if it came up and "beat" you senseless.
You couldn't get a clue to a real beat during clue mating season in a field of clues if you smeared your body in musk and did the clue mating dance.
Your beats are tedious, homogenised, chameleon-esque scribble which amount to nothing more than the demented cacophonous racket of a drugged lunatic banging loudly on kitchen pots and pans. Watching you make "beats" must be like watching Amputee Field Hockey: pathetic, and very quickly disgusting. Maybe you wouldn't be such a Jerk-In-The-Box if that pimple on your ass hadn't turned out to be a brain tumor
BTW, did your five-dollar whore of a mother pinch the umbilical cord on purpose. She must have. Otherwise you wouldn't come across as such a jellyfish-sucking mental midget if you weren't living proof that stupid people shouldn't breed.
Just when I think, "Surely this person has reached and encapsulates the limits of Internet Stupidity" you go and push the boundary even further. You had to demonstrate to the WHOLE GODDAMMED internet forum community
the BIG BANG OF STUPIDITY!!!!!
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Byrd+Gang,+Warner,+Def+Jam,+Violator&btnG=Google+Search
Now, why don’t you climb onto that Special Needs tricycle of yours with the fourth wheel attached for extra-ensured retard stability and pedal your fat ass down to the sports field and do some “outdoors” stuff for a change. Hell, if you don’t like it, you can always offer to pay them to lick-clean the jockstraps.
)You wouldn't know a real beat if it came up and "beat" you senseless.
You couldn't get a clue to a real beat during clue mating season in a field of clues if you smeared your body in musk and did the clue mating dance.
Your beats are tedious, homogenised, chameleon-esque scribble which amount to nothing more than the demented cacophonous racket of a drugged lunatic banging loudly on kitchen pots and pans. Watching you make "beats" must be like watching Amputee Field Hockey: pathetic, and very quickly disgusting. Maybe you wouldn't be such a Jerk-In-The-Box if that pimple on your ass hadn't turned out to be a brain tumor
BTW, did your five-dollar whore of a mother pinch the umbilical cord on purpose. She must have. Otherwise you wouldn't come across as such a jellyfish-sucking mental midget if you weren't living proof that stupid people shouldn't breed.
Just when I think, "Surely this person has reached and encapsulates the limits of Internet Stupidity" you go and push the boundary even further. You had to demonstrate to the WHOLE GODDAMMED internet forum community
the BIG BANG OF STUPIDITY!!!!!
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Byrd+Gang,+Warner,+Def+Jam,+Violator&btnG=Google+Search
Now, why don’t you climb onto that Special Needs tricycle of yours with the fourth wheel attached for extra-ensured retard stability and pedal your fat ass down to the sports field and do some “outdoors” stuff for a change. Hell, if you don’t like it, you can always offer to pay them to lick-clean the jockstraps.
gullfo
New member
very cool. I generally don't go to that level since I'm typically not managing the construction - i do give the owner plenty of time though to have me walk their contractors through the design and during and after construction to review via photos, web cams, IM, email or telephone calls to ask for additional input. I would definitely have to increase my fees considerably to do daily management on the build...
yea, I only worry about the mix position in the CR as well. Cheers!
R
Rod Gervais
New member
Glenn,
When I design a studio, a typical set of architectural drawings run around 65 sheets. Not much left to the imagination.
Things start adding up from there if they want me to design the HVAC as well.
I do not do electrical design - nor will I design their Low Voltage wiring for studio equipment.
I will (however) design their conduit routing for the LV systems.
Rod
When I design a studio, a typical set of architectural drawings run around 65 sheets. Not much left to the imagination.
Things start adding up from there if they want me to design the HVAC as well.
I do not do electrical design - nor will I design their Low Voltage wiring for studio equipment.
I will (however) design their conduit routing for the LV systems.
Rod
S
Soundbug
New member
Try soundblankets as a cheap alternative
I bought soundproofing blankets from a company called Moverssupplies, called Producers Choice, and they are pretty good. They are black one side, white the other which is kinda cool, and you can ask them to put holes in so you can hang them.
I bought soundproofing blankets from a company called Moverssupplies, called Producers Choice, and they are pretty good. They are black one side, white the other which is kinda cool, and you can ask them to put holes in so you can hang them.
L
lbaker
New member
Hey guys, just want an opinion here, but what do you think the cheapest way to go about acoustical treatment and soundproofing are?
We went to Lowes and got some insulation board for like 10 bucks for a 4 by 8 footer and just cut it into 4 pieces and put clothe on it. It seems to work OK.. but just wanted to know what you guys think...
Thanks!
I'm a super newbie here but I was just wondering the same thing, if you're talking about the styrofoam insulation.
How would that work for dampening down the echo and sound bouncing around and stuff (please forgive newbie terminology) if you just put it all around the walls of the room, styrofoam side out? I'm not talking pro standards here, just how much difference might that make and would it be worth the (cheap) cost?
thanks