Cedar vs. Spruce

[DrewPeterson7]

Now, you see, this thread illustrates what is perhaps the biggest problem with internet forums. Every one seems to have a few people who wrap their egos around whatever they post, and it blinds them to other good sources of information.

Are you trying to pick a fight here, or just blindly loyal to Godin because they once answered a question for you?

I mean, Muttley and Light, two guys whose opinions I generally trust, offered pretty good answers. You then referred the OP to a guitar company who doesn't even really make acoustics, if he "wanted a REAL authoritative answer." Again, from a company not actually involved in the business of making acoustics, mostly known for their synth work. To me, it almost looks as if you picked the worst possible company intentionally, just to force the two luthiers who posted in this thread to disagree with you so you could go on the above "ego" rant.

Weren't you the guy who started that thread about the "evils" of "expert advice" a while back, too?

 

[Milnoque]

The OP was asking for info specifically as it related to classical guitars. While (I believe) Godin does produce some classical guitars they are not noted for them. They may not be a good choice for input if one were to call a manufacturer.

If one were to want to compare sitka spruce to western redcedar there might be some worthwhile information to be had from the voice of someone who produces large numbers of otherwise similar instruments using each type of tonewood. The generic nature of the rest of the construction acts as a control for the experiment. Good luck talking to that guy from a factory.

 

[Milnoque]

I found this from a house that specializes in classical guitars. It restates what Light and Muttley have said and expands it a little.

What are the differences spruce between cedar tops? Is one better than the other?

Although there are many factors that go into the quality of a top (such as straightness and tightness of grain) given premium grade wood, master luthiers are able to make outstanding guitars with either spruce or cedar, so the question of which is better is in good part a matter of taste. In general, the tone of spruce is brighter, and the tonal envelop has a more defined edge and better separation than cedar. Cedar produces a darker tonality, with a more rounded, enveloping tone than spruce. Each type of spruce and cedar, however, have different characteristics and tonal properties. German spruce (Picea abies) has a very rich, bright, and clear tone. Its noble, focused voice and rich overtones offers a wide range of color. It has a woody sound that ages into a very powerful tone. Englemann spruce (Picea Engelmannii) is very similar in tonal character to German spruce. Sitka spruce (Picea sitchensis) has a bright, neutral tonal quality. Because of its strong fundamental, it has less tonal complexity and a narrower range of color than either German or Englemann spruce. Although it is not widely used to make classical guitars, it is often the preferred wood for steel-string guitars. Although the overtones of Canadian or Western red cedar (Thuja plicata) and redwood (Sequoia Sempervirons) are rich over a narrower range than spruce, their full tone, darker coloring, and warm enveloping sound is enchanting. Cedar and redwood are also more responsive than spruce at least initially, but they do not improve with age to the degree that spruce guitars do. Spruce, because it is a more resinous wood than cedar, takes more time to break in. With age resins become increasingly brittle, and with play, as these resins are fractured by sound, the guitar becomes increasingly responsive and mellow. Guitarist talk about this in terms of a "green" guitar "opening up" with time. How fast this happens depends on how much one plays and the age of the woods used in the top. The more aged the spruce used in making a top is, the more quickly it opens up. Again, there are some difference between types of spruce. Some open more quickly than others. German spruce takes one to two years open up, and will continue to improve though out its life. Englemann spruce being a less resinous wood opens more quickly. Sitka like German spruce takes more time to develop.

 

[Light]

Don't rise to him. Its been obvious for sometime the guy has a grudge against you in particular and also myself.

Yeah I know.

Actually, the reason I post here is so I can be a ornery curmudgeon in an anonymous environment. In the shop, and on any forum where I'm known by my name, I'm really very nice. To make up for being a bit of an ass sometimes, I do my best to also post good information whenever I can. I figure the two even out in the long run.

I'm actually pretty comfortable with my recording skills, as back in my mid-20's I used to make my money doing commercial's and the like (I had one on the Super Bowl one year - oh joy ). Paid fairly well, but the wear and tear on my soul wasn't worth the effort. I used to post a lot about that too, but the tilting at wind mills got to be a bit much. (You can only explain the difference between "phase" and "polarity" so many times, you know?) Plus, a lot of my knowledge is kind of outdated, as I hadn't even heard of a "plug-in" when I quit doing that shit.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Victory Pete]

Now, you see, this thread illustrates what is perhaps the biggest problem with internet forums. Every one seems to have a few people who wrap their egos around whatever they post, and it blinds them to other good sources of information.

I tried to word my post as to not sound like I was refruting anything said in this thread- but really, if one is going to tote up everyone's years of experience, I would daresay that "80 years of combined guitar building experience" would be a drop in the bucket, in comparison to the experience and skills accumulated by the find people who make guitars at Godin. The fact remains: the more material someone is exposed to, the more they are going to know it's "secrets." Who would give you better advice on tire lefe: A grandma who put tires on her car and didn't wear them our for ten years, or an over-the-road trucker who logs hundreds of thousand miles every year and replaces his rig's tires two or three times every year?

Further, go back and read the freaking title of the thread: Pete's query was about MATERIALS, not construction/build techniques. Godin, with all the trees they have felled and all the guitars they have made, probably sees more wood in a year than EVERYONE ON THIS FORUM WHO MAKES OR EVER MADE GUITAR(S) SEES IN THEIR WHOLE LIVES- ALL PUT TOGETHER. That the guitars Godin makes are not "hand made" (whatever that means- do you use cauls? Clamps? Electric drills and sanders? Those are all machines. Perhaps your guitars are not as "made by hand" as you would have us believe), or that they are not one-offs made with no mind paid to cost, has NOTHING to do with the OP's question about how the two woods compare.

I have found Godin to be very helpful when quered about specific issues like this, even when it was obvious the answer would not lead to the sale of a guitar. That their guitars are not top-shelf in some ways has no bearing on what they know about the wood they use.

I have seen here where you two have done this same thing, several times- you both are so impressed with yourselves that you can not acknowledge that someone else- be it another forum member or a gear maker- might actually know more about something- ANYTHING- than you do. You have become ossified- hardened and unable to absorb new information. The best thing to do with you both is to dip you in polyurethane and stick you in the corner of some museum, where you can gather dust- God knows you are not gathering knowledge any longer.

You read my mind!
VP