Cedar vs. Spruce

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Victory Pete

Victory Pete

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I would like some information on the differences between cedar and spruce soundboards specificly on classical guitars. I know spruce has been the typical wood used but apparently cedar has been used alot since the 60's. Thanks for any help.
VP:)
 
There are huge variations within the spruces commonly used. To asses the merit of cedar vs spruce is pointless if not impossible.

However as a rule of thumb. Cedar will give you a more mellow sound with tons of mid range and warmth without the "zing" that you get with spruce. To my ear it is very "woody" Its popular with musicians who do a lot of accompaniment in folk music and some fingerpickers. Frankly, I'm not a fan of cedar topped classical guitars as they seem to lack projection. That is just my observation some players like them. I love a good cedar topped acoustic for picking fiddle tunes though..

Cedar has been used as a soundboard timber for many years before the 60's on some instruments. In the States Port Orford cedar is often used. It's not Cedar though it's Cypress. What cedar are you specifically asking about?
 
In VERY generalized terms, cedar opens up very quickly but doesn't improve much with age. It also tends to be very rich in overtones, but not to have a particularly wide dynamic range (if you push it too hard while playing, it gets kind of farty).

Spruce will tend to take a while to open up, but will continue to do so for a very long time (forever?) Spruce will tend to have a stronger fundamental than spruce, but also will have a wider dynamic range (it still sounds good played lightly, but doesn't fall apart when you play it hard).

Of course, the sound of the guitar will have a lot more to do with how the maker braces things than anything else, so these are only very general guidelines. Personally, I have a big preference for spruce, and sitka spruce in particular, as I find I tend to drive cedar too hard fairly frequently. Both have their place, though, and I would certainly never fault someone for having different preferences than mine.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light said:
In VERY generalized terms, cedar opens up very quickly but doesn't improve much with age. It also tends to be very rich in overtones, but not to have a particularly wide dynamic range (if you push it too hard while playing, it gets kind of farty).

Spruce will tend to take a while to open up, but will continue to do so for a very long time (forever?) Spruce will tend to have a stronger fundamental than spruce, but also will have a wider dynamic range (it still sounds good played lightly, but doesn't fall apart when you play it hard).

Of course, the sound of the guitar will have a lot more to do with how the maker braces things than anything else, so these are only very general guidelines. Personally, I have a big preference for spruce, and sitka spruce in particular, as I find I tend to drive cedar too hard fairly frequently. Both have their place, though, and I would certainly never fault someone for having different preferences than mine.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
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I'd agree pretty much with all of that except that I've never found cedar to change with age at all apart from the first month or so which I put down to the whole guitar settling down which they all do. I think with cedar what you get out right off the bat is what you get.

I'm a spruce fan myself but have access to the finest European so favour that. My description of pushing cedar too hard would be "muddy". It just kind of gets floppy and indistinct. Thats why it's used a lot for finger picking and accompaniment I guess.
 
muttley600 said:
I'd agree pretty much with all of that except that I've never found cedar to change with age at all apart from the first month or so which I put down to the whole guitar settling down which they all do. I think with cedar what you get out right off the bat is what you get.
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Well, yeah. I was just trying not to make any absolute statements that can't really be checked factually. I can say that cedar doesn't seem to change much if at all, and it may well just be that any changes you see are from the lacquer continuing to out-gas, or the spruce braces aging, or whatever, but it's all so subjective that I can't really say with certainty. Then again, some people feel that cedar starts out sounding aged. I also have a friend, a very good guitar player and a collector who has had a lot of guitars over the last 60-some years, who believes that cedar sounds great for about ten years, and then it dies on you. Mostly, I just prefer spruces.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light's and Muttley's assessments of these soundboard woods pretty much match my playing experience. I own a Webber OM steel string and a Larrivee L-30 Nylon (both Rosewood body + cedar tops). Both of these guits seduced me with their sound--warm, complex, rich overtones; both are lightly braced and very responsive. The Webber projects very well and has bell-like quality. The Larrivee, although great sounding, does not project as well. The dynamic range? With the kind of fingerstyle I play, this has never been an issue for me. Both are 1995 vintage, and to my ears, definitely are not dying. However, both will start sounding flabby if pushed too hard--which I rarely do.

I like spruce topped guits as well, BTW, just don't own any currently.
 
If you want a REAL authorative answer to your question, put it to the folks at Godin Guitars- they have probably used more of both as guitar tops than anyone else.
 
stevieb said:
If you want a REAL authoritative answer to your question, put it to the folks at Godin Guitars- they have probably used more of both as guitar tops than anyone else.
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I'd say that something like 80 years of combined guitar building experience would have to be more authoritative than a company that doesn't actually make acoustic guitars. It looks like Godin has bought some acoustic lines (Seagull, Simon & Patrick, etc.), but none of them are what you would call a high end guitar, so not really pertinent experience.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
stevieb said:
If you want a REAL authorative answer to your question, put it to the folks at Godin Guitars- they have probably used more of both as guitar tops than anyone else.
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To be honest as good as Godin guitars are they would be the last people I'd ask for advice on matters of musical acoustics but you are free to do so. If you want another opinion then you would be better off at one of the better acoustic guitar forums, mimf, catgut acoustical society, or any of the independent not for profit places that guitar builders and acousticians hang out.

Just for the record the basic principles that light and myself have laid out are not just our opinions however factually based you may believe them to be but are generally accepted guidelines. In fact I defy you to find any maker that has built even a small number of guitars with both who would claim any different. If you can I'd be interested to chat with him or her and find out how they are bracing and thicknessing their instruments and exactly what sort of response they get from them. Seriously I be very interested.
 
Now, you see, this thread illustrates what is perhaps the biggest problem with internet forums. Every one seems to have a few people who wrap their egos around whatever they post, and it blinds them to other good sources of information.

I tried to word my post as to not sound like I was refruting anything said in this thread- but really, if one is going to tote up everyone's years of experience, I would daresay that "80 years of combined guitar building experience" would be a drop in the bucket, in comparison to the experience and skills accumulated by the find people who make guitars at Godin. The fact remains: the more material someone is exposed to, the more they are going to know it's "secrets." Who would give you better advice on tire lefe: A grandma who put tires on her car and didn't wear them our for ten years, or an over-the-road trucker who logs hundreds of thousand miles every year and replaces his rig's tires two or three times every year?

Further, go back and read the freaking title of the thread: Pete's query was about MATERIALS, not construction/build techniques. Godin, with all the trees they have felled and all the guitars they have made, probably sees more wood in a year than EVERYONE ON THIS FORUM WHO MAKES OR EVER MADE GUITAR(S) SEES IN THEIR WHOLE LIVES- ALL PUT TOGETHER. That the guitars Godin makes are not "hand made" (whatever that means- do you use cauls? Clamps? Electric drills and sanders? Those are all machines. Perhaps your guitars are not as "made by hand" as you would have us believe), or that they are not one-offs made with no mind paid to cost, has NOTHING to do with the OP's question about how the two woods compare.

I have found Godin to be very helpful when quered about specific issues like this, even when it was obvious the answer would not lead to the sale of a guitar. That their guitars are not top-shelf in some ways has no bearing on what they know about the wood they use.

I have seen here where you two have done this same thing, several times- you both are so impressed with yourselves that you can not acknowledge that someone else- be it another forum member or a gear maker- might actually know more about something- ANYTHING- than you do. You have become ossified- hardened and unable to absorb new information. The best thing to do with you both is to dip you in polyurethane and stick you in the corner of some museum, where you can gather dust- God knows you are not gathering knowledge any longer.
 
stevieb said:
Now, you see, this thread illustrates what is perhaps the biggest problem with internet forums. Every one seems to have a few people who wrap their egos around whatever they post, and it blinds them to other good sources of information.
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We should go back to your thread where all the amps where the same because they were all 40 watts. That was classic.

stevieb said:
I tried to word my post as to not sound like I was refruting anything said in this thread- but really, if one is going to tote up everyone's years of experience, I would daresay that "80 years of combined guitar building experience" would be a drop in the bucket, in comparison to the experience and skills accumulated by the find people who make guitars at Godin. The fact remains: the more material someone is exposed to, the more they are going to know it's "secrets." Who would give you better advice on tire lefe: A grandma who put tires on her car and didn't wear them our for ten years, or an over-the-road trucker who logs hundreds of thousand miles every year and replaces his rig's tires two or three times every year?
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A trucker does not know anything more about tires than grandma. I know, I am a diesel tech. 99% of those guys sit in the waiting room while someone from their company (which owns most of the trucks) makes the decisions.
The owner operators (guys who own/lease their own truck) make decisions mostly on cost. But then, I don't do tires...but I don't see it as any different than a leaking head gasket, "does it need to get fixed now?". lol

Just because a company makes guitars doesn't mean they craft guitars.
 
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stevieb said:
Now, you see, this thread illustrates what is perhaps the biggest problem with internet forums. Every one seems to have a few people who wrap their egos around whatever they post, and it blinds them to other good sources of information.
Click to expand...
Before you get your panties in such a knot that you'll be unable to untie them, let me offer this:

Light and Muttley and other instrument builders on this forum offer information they have obtained through developing their craft through the years, and each have actually laid hands upon the woods of each instrument that they have crafted, and felt and heard the music made by each.

You, on the other hand, offer no information but refer the questioner to a manufacturer of guitars that is not known for making instruments of particularly high quality, then have a hissy fit when challenged.

It is posters like you that make the knowledgeable members want to say, "Fuck it, why do I even try?" I would suggest that you would learn a lot more by keeping your figurative trap shut, and your eyes and ears open.

These guys don't need me to defend them, but they aren't the only ones that you'll piss off with that attitude.
 
Zaphod B said:
These guys don't need me to defend them, but they aren't the only ones that you'll piss off with that attitude.
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He ain't pissing me off. The guy's had issues for quite a while and he comes across as a bitter and ignorant individual. I'll leave it to the group to decide which posters in this board have anything of value to add to the debate. Frankly his post was a mess and I'm waiting to see him provide any evidence that the opinions offered so far by light or myself are at odds with any information he may have found elsewhere be it Godin or other forums. Some how I don't think that is going to happen.;)
 
Outlaws said:
...A trucker does not know anything more about tires than grandma. I know, I am a diesel tech...
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Zaphod B said:
...Light and Muttley and other instrument builders on this forum offer information they have obtained through developing their craft through the years...
Click to expand...

You guys would be funny, if you were not so pathetic. A diesel tech does not necessarly know squat about tires- and my analogy was about tire life. Certainly, a OTR trucker would know much more about how long a tire would last than a tech- a typical tire tech spends a few minutes with a tire, whereas a driver spends hundreds of hours rolling down the road on at least 4 (and often 18) of them- and a diesel tech would typically spend even less. Even if the truck driver does not choose what tires are on his rig, he will have considerable experience with how long they wear.

What separates an OTR truck driver from a diesel tech, tire tech or grandma is the sheer quantity of miles he rolls along, on those tires. You may spend about ten miles a month rolling around the shop yard, or maybe fifty miles if you count test drives. (And yes, I do know quite a bit about the work habits of diesel techs, having paid for my undergraduate education working as a line tech and service manager.) To turn the analogy back around, the quantity of wood- in this case, cedar and spruce- a company like Godin has gone through, over the years, gives it a HUGE sample size to draw conclusions from- Tweedledee and Tweedledum, I mean Light and Muttley use a mere fraction of that amount of wood, and the conclusions they might draw from that much lower sample size gives them far less power (talk to a statistician about that) than a company like Godin.

A true craftsman recognizes the quality that goes into an object, regardless of it's origin. I once watched my ex-father-in-law (a professional welder) marvel at the craftsmanship that had gone into a humble cattle brand, when he observed that the joints were forged, not welded. He did not dismiss the iron as inferior because it had lowly origins, he saw it for a functional object that was well made. T-dee and T-dum, and you two defenders of their ego-driven subtifuge, are not worthy to even hold that man's welding leads.

My jockys in a knot? Not today, dumb-dumb. My read of your post suggest that it's your blood pressure that is on the rise.

So, they may want to say, "Fuck it, why do I even try?" I wish they would say just that, and take their soft, swollen egos elsewhere.

And frankly, I don't give half a damn if I piss you off.
 
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stevieb said:
You guys would be funny, if you were not so pathetic. A diesel tech does not necessarly know squat about tires- and my analogy was about tire life. Certainly, a OTR trucker would know much more about how long a tire would last than a tech- a typical tire tech spends a few minutes with a tire, whereas a driver spends hundreds of hours rolling down the road on at least 4 (and often 18) of them- and a diesel tech would typically spend even less. Even if the truck driver does not choose what tires are on his rig, he will have considerable experience with how long they wear.

What separates an OTR truck driver from a diesel tech, tire tech or grandma is the sheer quantity of miles he rolls along, on those tires. You may spend about ten miles a month rolling around the shop yard, or maybe fifty miles if you count test drives. (And yes, I do know quite a bit about the work habits of diesel techs, having paid for my undergraduate education working as a line tech and service manager.) To turn the analogy back around, the quantity of wood- in this case, cedar and spruce- a company like Godin has gone through, over the years, gives it a HUGE sample size to draw conclusions from- Tweedledee and Tweedledum, I mean Light and Muttley use a mere fraction of that amount of wood, and the conclusions they might draw from that much lower sample size gives them far less power (talk to a statistician about that) than a company like Godin.

A true craftsman recognizes the quality that goes into an object, regardless of it's origin. I once watched my ex-father-in-law (a professional welder) marvel at the craftsmanship that had gone into a humble cattle brand, when he observed that the joints were forged, not welded. He did not dismiss the iron as inferior because it had lowly origins, he saw it for a functional object that was well made. T-dee and T-dum, and you two defenders of their ego-driven subtifuge, are not worthy to even hold that man's welding leads.

My jockys in a knot? Not today, dumb-dumb. My read of your post suggest that it's your blood pressure that is on the rise.

So, they may want to say, "Fuck it, why do I even try?" I wish they would say just that, and take their soft, swollen egos elsewhere.

And frankly, I don't give half a damn if I piss you off.
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You were a service manager? lol....This is a prime example why we tell ours to mind his own business and let us do our job. He thinks he knows something too...but he doesn't, he is a pencil pusher.

I cannot count the number of drivers who have come into our shop for engine work and not known who made their engine.

The driver only sees what fails if he happens to use it. We see EVERYTHING that fails, all day long. Being that you were a "service manager", I would have thought you knew that.

Quantity is another thing...who cares if Godin uses the whole rain forest. You might as well ask Samick what the best wood is. They will tell you. But they will tell you based on what the best wood for their operation is. And their operation (on the large scale you speak of), just like Godin, is not building quality acoustic guitars.

Reasoning this is probably wasting my time. Just like your amps that all used 12ax7's, had 12" speakers, and had nearly the same cab dimensions. Man they must all sound the same since the specs all line up. You see where I am going with this? What did you call me for trying to explain that one to you? Stupid or a moron on something. Either way, you knew what you were talking about totally, and I will back off of this because you obvious know your wood too. After all, some tool getting paid minimum wage on the telephone told you all about it.
 
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stevieb said:
That the guitars Godin makes are not "hand made" (whatever that means- do you use cauls? Clamps? Electric drills and sanders? Those are all machines. Perhaps your guitars are not as "made by hand" as you would have us believe).
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Wow, somewhere in all that dross you actually managed to put in an actual legitimate question.

The difference between hand made and factory made has very little to do with the tools used, but with who does the work. You see, when I make an acoustic guitar, I do all of the work myself. When I'm sanding the top to thickness, I will vary the thickness depending on how stiff the particular piece of wood happens to be. I will brace it a little stiffer or a little looser depending on the sound I'm after. I make these determinations by thinking back on guitars I have made in the past, and making changes depending what results I am after. I can do this because I have played every guitar I've ever made a top for.

In a factory, the guy who sands the tops to thickness sands them to a particular number on his calipers. The guy who braces the top (who is a different guy) grabs pre-shaped braces (made by someone else) out of a box, and glues them on in exactly the same places every time. None of these people can change what they are doing to alter the sound of the guitar, because they have no idea what those changes will do as they will never play most of the guitars they work on. Hell, many of them probably can't even play the guitar. This is not to dismiss their work - some of the finest guitars in the world are made in factories. But to suggest they have the same kind of intimate knowledge of the guitars they make is just silly.

A hand made guitar is made by one person who understands all of the tasks involved, and how they effect one another. A factory made guitar is made by a large group of people who work to a set of specs, and each of them do just one task. Great guitars can be made either way, but you get a greater variety from a hand built guitar.

So you are more than welcome to ask the guy who braces Seagulls what he thinks of Cedar vs. Spruce. He'll tell you Cedar is so soft it's a pain in the ass to work with (which is true). He probably won't tell you that it tends to have a limited dynamic range.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Light said:
Wow, somewhere in all that dross you actually managed to put in an actual legitimate question.
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Don't rise to him. Its been obvious for sometime the guy has a grudge against you in particular and also myself. Frankly I couldn't give a monkeys toss about his agenda. The only reason I and I suspect you post here as well others with a good deal of experience is because initially we came here to learn about some aspects of home recording. I still do. In an effort to put something back I share what I do know with others here, and because secondly there there are some good guys here. If he thinks I'm an arrogant know it all that's fine but only when the rest of the group agree will I take any notice of him.

More importantly, and you'll notice how he has skipped over this bit, I'm still waiting for him to provide an alternative description of the qualities of cedar and spruce. Once he has done that we can move on to ask him of other factually incorrect advice we have given here. Maybe if we stick to that he will expose himself as the bitter and blinkered guy that he is. Once he has done that we can point out some of the laughable statements he has made by way of return.

So my challenge to him is simple, show us the incorrect info and advice I don't care if he gets his reference from Godin or a tyre manufacturer because until he provides it in the wider eyes of this board he is just showing himself off as a "cock".;)
 
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