Can of worms here --> Outboard gear with computer DAW

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RawDepth

RawDepth

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There has been a lot of discussion lately about using outboard gear with computer DAW’s. Some folks prefer to forgo the software plug-ins in their DAW and use outboard rack processors instead, claiming they are better.

(I’m talking modern digital processors and EQ’s now, not analog tube gear.)

The way I see it, the firmware (software) used in many digital processors are not doing anything different than your plug-ins could have done in the first place. Don't those processors just create (convert from analog) a stream of digital data, send it through a small computer chip to perform some fancy algorithm (math) on it, and then send it back to where it came from?

So what are they doing that your plug-ins couldn’t do? And why bother with all those A/D and D/A conversions in between?
 
Well, in the case of something like a very processor-intensive task like reverb, an outboard would theoretically have the advantage of being able to process in real-time much more rapidly and efficiently than your computer's native processor without bogging down your computer's resources, lowering your track count, causing skips and sputters, etc.

It becomes a little more ambiguous as to what advantage there might be over a non-native type deal like a UAD-1 card, for example. But again, the idea is that you might theoretically be able to perform much more complex math with outboard.
 
RawDepth said:
(I’m talking modern digital processors and EQ’s now, not analog tube gear.)
Click to expand...

What about analog solid state gear? That's what many people are talking about with respect to outboard, especially compressors.

In fact the UAD-1 is mainly designed to emulate analog gear, whether solid state or tube.

But if we truly are talking digital outboard gear, then yeah, get it on a card and save yourself the conversion, or at least talk via ADAT or S/PDIF.
 
the point of a lot of the outboard digital gear i think is so you can't pirate it....
 
If you're going outboard to a digital processor, you should be able to connect via SPDIF, AES/BU or other digital format. There is no conversion. Some outboard digital processors sound better than plug-ins, or perhaps offer a different flavor.

If you're going outboard to analog, then the conversion and reconversion step in needed (it's no big deal). Some actually mix on an outboard analog board intead of ITB. It can make a big difference to many. That's why it's done.
 
For me, once I started mixing in the box, I found outboard gear to be too much of a PITA due to the latency issue. At the same time I found native plugins to be lacking when it came to reverb. So I have a TC Powercore, which sounds great, and since my software of choice (Samplitude) has really well implimented auto-latency compensation, it all works seamlessly. As computers get faster and faster, native plugins are getting better, but they still are compromising the algorthms for code effeciancy. That's what hardware boxes don't have to do, and that's what someone writing code for a DSP card with the equivelent MIPS of 4 G4 Macs (like a Powercore card) doesn't have to do.
-RD
 
haha, this reminds me of something my school audio teacher tried to tell me.

I had the waves Rverb plugin on a track and he saw it and goes "why are you using that plugin crap when we have a real out board reverb here" (the school has a dodgy zoom digital reverb).

Not wanting to just say the zoom was a piece of crap I said "well if I went down to it I'd have to compensate for latency, and I realy like some of the paterns on this plugin"

His reply to that was "sure, but you won't get an "analog" sound from that"

my friend who was with me at the time spoke up and said "thats a digital reverb why would it give an analog sound?"

The teacher looked at us disdainfully and said "don't you realise it has to go down to analog to get into this unit?.. it'll get an analog sound there"
 
I have wondered the same thing, and actually considered making a similar post one time. Just about every effects processor out there that I know of, is digital, so in the end it is all software. We are just adding an extra pair of A/D D/A conversions, plus at least a tiny possibility of cable noise/impedance.

Now I understand that high end studio gear probably has way better software, and sound results than you can get out of a plug-in - but what about home/project studio level gear, like the midrange lexicons? Is there really an advantage to go back out to those? Now how about low end zoom and behringer effects modules? Where is the quality 'cut off point', above which you can get a difference in quality between rack gear FX and VST's? It sure would seem to be a waste of money that could be used in other areas (pres, mics, outboard compressors) to go out and buy a mid range FX unit, if it didn't sound much, if any better than good free plugins like Kjaerhus and Digitalfishphones. Thoughts?

Amra
 
your teacher was wrong.


some outboard digital gear does have its own "sound" for instance the quad.

but as for getting analog sound at home I use a fostex spring reverb i got for i think 150 bucks. furman sells what is supposed to be a fantastic spring reverb. you can build a plate reverb. I have yet to try this but I want to drag my PA and a mic into the garage and hook it up to an aux send. be creative. i think if your friend was in the garage movin the mic around it would make a flange.
 
I have no latency issues at all with my DAW. I process (with plug-ins) one track at a time and save the changes as I go. (Of course, I keep the original wav files backed up incase I later change my mind and want to revert.) Every track stays perfectly in sync with the others no matter how many plug-ins I run them through.

I do run some real-time effects just to see how things will sound before I save. I have never noticed any lag, though. Perhaps that is because I am working on a good high end computer and my track count is usually below 24.

I wouldn’t mind trying out a UAD-1 card or something like a Powercore just to see if they really do sound better.

In addition, I have S/PDIF in/out, AES/EBU in/out, ADAT in/out, and RME’s best converters. I shouldn’t have too much trouble even using outboard gear if I wanted.

I just wanted to know what the big deal was with outboard.
 
I find that external reverbs sound better than 90% of my plug ins with the exception of the Plate 140 on the UAD1. A midrange reverb or delay box is a better proposition overall, especially if it has digital in and out. It just sounds better.

Other external gear after tracking is kind of pointless unless you like noise, frequency coloration etc. The only exception is reamping a synth which adds some validity to the sound. Maybe a DI'd Bass which has no oomph. There are exceptions like the high end tape saturation devices coming into vogue and also external summing boxes which are trying for analog warmth.

External compressors or limiters along with decent preamps are a must while tracking and make the difference between average and exceptable results. So some external gear, mainly while tracking, is almost a must.

The UAD-1 compressors are mainly for color unless you have a tracking program like Pro Tools which can track with them. They can't help you with tracking in most cases and are no substitute for front end devices.
 
RawDepth said:
(snip)
I just wanted to know what the big deal was with outboard.
Click to expand...

Rent, borrow or purchase a Pendulum Audio compressor, a TC Electronics M6000 reverb, or a host of other outboard gear. Use them with your DAW. That would show any of us why it can be a big deal.
 
I use "plug-outs" (outboard analog and digital gear). But yeah, a lot of the cheapie outboard reverbs don't sound as good as a decent plugin, so why bother? Cheapie analog compressors, on the other hand, sound fantabulous (dbx 160xt, JBL/Urei 7110, dbx 163, etc). And a good outboard 'verb preset is also worth it, IMHO.

Latency is a pain in the ass, but you do the work to compensate for it once, and then you "set it and forget it".

For getting "that analog sound" out of a ZOOM verb, you could put some highly coloured input and output transformers on it. Or you could just skip the reverb unit altogether and run the whole mix through the trafos. Y'know, to get "that analog sound". :rolleyes:
 
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