Can I do this?

guitar ed

guitar ed

New member
Hey, all. I have a need for a specific feature, and I'm not seeing it in Sonar. I need something that amounts to quantize for audio. If I'm finger-picking an acoustic guitar part that needs to be straight eighth notes, and I mess up the timing here and there, is there something I can do to get it in time? (Now, don't none of you smart-asses come back and tell me to play it in time in the first place!) I would think I can split the whole file up into pieces in Recycle or something similar then manipulate them that way? Does anyone have an idea about this? Thanks, thanks, thanks.

ed
 
This kind of opens up a whole realm of questions for me about life, the universe, and everything.

Like, how long will it be before we can just get software that we just type in a description of the music we want to create, and it will just create the whole thing for us?

There's already pitch correction, if you can't sing, quantization for midi if you can't play. You can edit together endless multiple takes of a vocal part by someone who can't really sing, and make it sound like they can.

We have Drumagog for those of us who can't really mic a drumset. (guilty, though I haven't bought it yet, and I'm by no means giving up on learning to mic.)

I guess I'm just a little concerned though I know I shouldn't be.

I mean why should we bother to learn how to be excellent at what we do, if someone is just going to come up with a plug-in that takes care of it?

We are Home-Recordists, so we need all the help we can get, and should use all the tools at our disposal to make music that is as excellent as possible, right?

I guess I am just frustrated at Ed's comment about
Now, don't none of you smart-asses come back and tell me to play it in time in the first place!
Click to expand...

Yeah I would like a tool that would allow me to fix up audio that was played with poor timing, as a back-up, to rescue an otherwise perfect track. I guess what I don't like is the underlying implication that we shouldn't even try to play it right in the first place.

Sorry if that's not what you are saying Ed, but in fact that is what a plug-in like that would allow.

I want to raise these questions, although I already realize that what actually sets Good music apart, is Good Musicianship!, Good Recording! Good Instruments! Attention to detail, and quality!

Oh and yes a healthy dose of Talent and Skill!

The reason there is no real reason to worry is that we will always be able to tell good music when we hear it.


To address the specific question, I would try to play it right in the first place, or get someone to do it who can, and if you/they mess up, then go in and try to edit chop up line up the waves by hand.

;)
 
Dude, I've been playing guitar for 30 years. I'm very accomplished on my instrument, and the fact that you know nothing about me or my skills disqualifies you from judging. I apologize if I frustrated you, but on the other hand, I don't care. We as musicians can do things in our own homes that weren't even imagined 10 years ago. Technology is moving ahead all the time, and I personally feel that we need to move with it or get left behind. Sure, playing great is very important, but you make it sound like I want to slop my way through an entire song, then let the technology clean it up for me. You are WAY off base, here. Are you telling me that you don't use quantize? My original post said that I want to correct the timing "here and there". And I can assure you that "here and there" is all I would need. I'm not blowing my own horn, but it's been 30 years!! Honestly! My days of traveling around the country playing a different venue every night are over, but I still have lots of good songs in me that I would like to present to artists or publishers. What's wrong with trying to produce the perfect demo? I play pretty damn good, but if I need to fall back on a little technology to make it great, so be it. Anyway, no hard feelings here.

ed
 
Sorry Ed, wasn't trying to disrespect or demean your skills at all, just my lame attempt to get one of those long discussion threads going, that goes on and on, and everybody jumps in on, and brings up lot of really interesting points, you know?

I had hoped that you wouldn't be offended, and would read between the lines that I was talking to the hacks out there who just want to click a few buttons ( I'm sure you've read their posts, and once again I apologize for presuming to lump you in with them), and make something that impresses their friends, not to the actual experienced, quality musicians who are striving to make good music, of which it sounds as though you are.

You're right that I don't know you, and haven't read too many of your posts either. I'll try to remedy this soon!

What I was trying to actually say is that those of us who can do should be helping those who can't do to learn how to do, instead of giving them tools to pretend they can do!

Please don't take this as an accusation against you!

I know this is all quite silly, because "progress" demands we continue onward, with ever more incredible software, hardware etc. always on the horizon (which I too will continure to embrace, like duh!).

I really meant it when I said:
This kind of opens up a whole realm of questions for me about life, the universe, and everything.
Click to expand...

Right here is where I tried to Hi-Jack your thread, sorry! But you really got me thinking!

And when I said I was frustrated about your statement, I didn't mean frustrated with you, but with the message it sends to those looking for the easy way out. Yeah, I know they'll find it anyway, no matter what we say about honing your skills.

Sure, playing great is very important, but you make it sound like I want to slop my way through an entire song, then let the technology clean it up for me.
Click to expand...

Ah, but there are SOOO many who do just that! And to them I am speaking! You know who you are! No, actually they probably don't. ANYWAY. . .

but if I need to fall back on a little technology to make it great, so be it.
Click to expand...

Exactly! Fall back on, not use it for everything.
Man we're on the same page here!

Anyway, I think I will hold off on trying to wax eloquent again until I have something more cohesive, and less meandering to say next time.:)

No hard feelin's!:D
 
maestro_dmc said:
This kind of opens up a whole realm of questions for me about life, the universe, and everything.
;)
Click to expand...
I think I might be of some help here. Saw the answer once. It was 41. Or maybe 42.
:cool:
 
maestro, you need not hold back when the urge strikes to express an opinion. The fact is, to an extent, you're right. Actual playing of an instrument may have taken a backseat because the technology makes it easier. Fruity Loops, for example can produce finished compositions by one who can't play ANY instrument! I apologize if I sounded a bit gruff, but I have put years and years into the effort of mastering my instrument (which I don't feel I've done yet), and your comments hit me as personal rather than general.

I guess the individual goals of all of us will determine where to draw the line pertaining to technology and how much effort is required to obtain the desired result. If I was striving to become a signed artist, I would certainly be doing myself a diservice by releasing recorded material that I couldn't physically reproduce. That would make for an interesting concert, but the career would be a short one! On the other hand, I've played live about all I care to, I'm married now with kids, and the prospect of being in a touring band just isn't feasible for me. I still love music, and I love to play, but the direction is now focused on trying to get my songs heard by people who can do something with them, which will (hopefully) allow me the opportunity to go to the mailbox and retrieve royalty checks!

Having said that, I think it would benefit me to use whatever application I can to produce the closest-to-perfect recordings possible from a home studio. After all, I'm not going to be the one who has to play the stuff in front of 30,000 screaming fans every night!! And understand, also, that I'm not talking about creating 32nd note runs that no human can accomplish. I would just like to have a program that would let me tighten up the occaisional timing discrepency and save the time of multiple takes. Do you see what I mean? I wanna be a lean, mean, songwriting machine!! And there's no time for second takes!!!!

Anyway, I hope I didn't upset you, and if this thread takes on the sophisticated, thought-provoking direction you were looking for, I hope I can contribute! C-ya

ed
 
Back to the original question:

There are ways to do what you want. Certainly you can manually line notes up where you want them, at least to a degree, if there's enough silence around them. I'm sure there are algorithms that can detect audio events and move them around automatically to line up to an imposed grid, but these probably only work well for very percussive sounds like drums with a very clear and fast attack transient and a very quick decay afterwards. The audio events from guitar arpeggios are not that distinct unless you play very staccato, and if you move them around the attacks and sustains of the notes will probably sound rather unnatural.

So an automatic thing might get you in the ballpark but you would still have manual work to do. You can do all kinds of fiddling with a good audio editing tool to minimize the unnaturalness, but the amount of work involved would probably be above and beyond just playing the damn part over and over until you can execute it right.
 
Thanks, Al. That's kinda what I'm thinkin. Punch recording is cool, but I sometimes find it difficult to capture the same mood and feeling as I had on the original take. To be honest, I normally record the whole track over if there's a mistake in it. Then again, that could explain why I'm right up there with Boston when it comes to getting songs finished in a timely fashion. Thanks again

ed
 
Then there's always the red-light syndrome -- you practice the shit out of it, play it flawlessly a dozen times, then when you hit Record, flmmmpphhh! I suffer from that one a lot. (To be brutally honest, I often try to record something when I'm not quite totally ready to and I should probably be allowing myself a little more time to get the parts locked down...)
 
Thanks Ed!

In respect to your actual original question ( a part of me just can't resist trying to solve technical problems) I do have some ideas.

As AlChuck said rather well, it sounds pretty unnatural to edit most acoustic guitar parts, unless there is total silence. However MIDI is of course quite easy to line up.

Is a roland guitar synth an option for you as an input device? I've heard some extremely good sound/models coming out of them in the last few years, and because the synth is actually played by plucking a guitar, it is automatically going to sound more realistic, than synth guitar played on a keyboard.

And of course once the part is recorded in via the midi, you can quantize, and then audition endless guitar sounds over your original performance.

If production speed is of the essence, then this may be a quick option, though maybe an expensive one!

:)

Fellow red light syndrome sufferer signing off!

dave
 
Nah, I'm not one of those guys who can run right out and buy whatever I need. Remember my other post? (Wife, kids) You may know where I'm coming from! I have lots of gear, though. It just bums me out to have an otherwise wonderful track except for that one little, tiny, minute mistake. You know, the one your friends say they can't even notice, but hits your ears like the brakes on a school bus? That's the one I'm talking about! I usually have to record the whole track over just to fix that little bugger. It's even worse when you don't notice it for a few days after recording, then if you want to try to punch in, you have to get the same sound, ambience, and all that stuff. Never sounds like it belongs in there, ya know? Anyway, I'll get by just like I have for all these years. I'll just have to get my head back to where it was before I became the engineer, producer, and performer, and spend a little much-needed quality time with my guitar. And, for what it's worth, that damn little red light has caused me to call it a night and turn in early on more than one occasion, too!!! Talk to ya guys later.

ed
 
Recycle files cannot be read in Sonar:( You can try Loop construction View in Sonar which chops up the wav file similar to recycle and then moving each section around, stretching and diminshing as you see fit. I have had the same problem as you have in the past and try as I might, I have not been able to achieve a viable solution.

Its so time consuming, its easier to re-record:)
 
Ed,

(Great name by the way!)

If you've been playing guitar for 30 years, then chances are, most of your eigth notes will sound sound just fine. For the few that don't, you can easily zoom in, put use the scissors tool before and after each ffending note, and then rock the time of that segment back and forth until it's perfect (or close enough for your ears).

Once everything is lined up, you could even record that track to another track so that it doesn't have slice marks in it, and save each bar or phrase as a loop, to drop in whenever you want (say if you want to repeat those eighth notes under each chorus).

There are probably more sophisticated ways to do what you to do, which hopefully others will chime in with.

Good luck!

Ed
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top