can drums be tracked last?

M

mick8569

New member
my mates band just recorded, and obviously did the drums first. the drummer uses an electronic kit and they just saved it as audio however its pretty average, the cymbal is overpowering, toms are wierd, cant really hear bass drum. anyway they tried re-recording the drums while the drummer listened to the rest of the band but during the song he said that it changed tempo slightly (as no click track was used).

any advise? do u think he should be able to get it if he gives it a few goes? from a guitarists perspective i think he should just listen to the music and follow along, but u drummers are natural leaders i spose :rolleyes: (maybe i shouldnt be sarcastic when asking for help)

thanks guys,
mick.
 
I think it is possible. Just make sure he has a loud mix in his phones that has what he needs. If he follows the guitars then make sure they are loud enough so he can play along.
I have only ever done this with recording all the parts with a click or drum machine and then going back and recording real drums.
 
Are you recording on a computer? What program are you using? This isn't that out there. What I would suggest doing is, create a midi note on every quarter note. You can either do it the hard way, by zooming in and clicking every time you see the beats, or connect a keyboard with midi cables and hit a key on the quarter notes as you listen to the song. Try your hardest to stay on beat with the song while you're doing that. When you're done with that, then zoom in and slide each midi note to the correct spot, ya know, if you slowed down or sped up. You want to make sure you've got quarter notes that follow along exactly to the music. Use that midi note to trigger your choice of clicking. This method can take a little bit of time, but you'll have a metronome to follow along to.

It also might take some time to record the drums along to it where it speeds up or slows down, but if you do the song in sections, the drummer should be able to learn where it changes tempo and in a few takes he should have it.

I use Sonar 4.0. I would take it one step further and "fit to improvisation" using the newly created midi metronome. Sonar looks at the variations in the tempo and actually adjusts the project BPM automatically as the song goes. That way you can still use the grid for easy editing. Otherwise your music is just kind of floating in space.

So yes, it's possible. I've done this... exactly what you're talking about. But it's always... ALWAYS easier if you record to a metronome first. I'm actually recording a girl right now who is recording her piano and vocals first, and then I'm figuring out what more the songs needs once she goes home. I'll add guitar, drums, bass, all depending on what I think it calls for. But if I think there's a distinct possibility that it's going to have drums, I have her record the piano to a click track. And I also don't record the audio from the keyboard for her piano, I record the midi. That way I can fix any errors in her playing. Which you should have done with your drummer's electronic set. Otherwise, what's the point of using an electronic set? :)
 
I play all the instruments on my recordings, and I'm a drummer. I do the drums last almost all the time. I do all my other tracks to a drum machine, then I do my drum track using the drums machine as my click, while listening to everythine else. I've also done colloborations online with people where I had to play to another drummer's track. Another thing I've done is use the TAP TEMPO feature on my 2488, if I'm replacing a track that was done to no click track.
Why don't you just play to the song with the other drummer as your guide?
 
RAMI said:
I play all the instruments on my recordings, and I'm a drummer. I do the drums last almost all the time.
Click to expand...

Me, too. Well, almost. I use a click track while recording all of the backing tracks, then add the drums before adding the melody lines. I like to add the drums later, after recording the other backing parts, so that I can use the drums to emphasize certain aspects of the backing tracks that have developed during the writing-recording process. But I like the drums already there when recording the melody lines since the drums can really inspire me my solo lines. But that's just me.

J.
 
I always thought you'd either record the drums last or record them all at once... then again, I haven't really recorded anything yet :p As a drummer, I like to have something to play along to so I can add accents and fills here and there, and the couple times I've tried recording I've always done guitars first. Then again, I've played so long I've got a natural "click track" and the tempo is pretty consistent. If I can do it, I'm pretty sure you guys you have actually recorded can pull it off.
 
Well right, under ideal circumstances you put down scratch tracks of guitar and whatever else the drummer needs so he knows what's going on in the song. Then once all the drums are tracked you record the music to them. Also, something I always like to emphasize to people... turn the metronome off once the drums are recorded. The only time I leave any ticking in there is if the drums rest for an extended period of time. But you want the music on with the drums, not the metronome. The drummer may speed up and slow down slightly, which is OK. In the end everything needs to be synched to him.
 
thanks for all the replies. the guy who recorded them didnt have any midi experience so was wondering why when recorded in midi it didnt play back any audio when midi out wasnt assigned......but anyway. oh he is using pro tools btw, dont know which version, one of the cheap ones though.

SonicClang said:
The drummer may speed up and slow down slightly, which is OK. In the end everything needs to be synched to him.
Click to expand...

yeah this is what i meant by a change in tempo, not like goin from 100 bbm in the verse to 80 in the chorus or anything, just like really minute changes to the tempo that the drummer would of done accidentally, then everyone would of followed that to stay in time, so now when retracked the drummer is having trouble.

i like the manually inserted click track idea, also i wasnt sure if u guys ment that it would be easier to lay down the drum tracks while listening with the orriginal drums in the mix or not? i would of assumed that listening to a drum part and tryin to play the same thing over the top would of been a lil confusing? i dunno.

thanks again for all the help,
mick.
 
SonicClang said:
Well right, under ideal circumstances you put down scratch tracks of guitar and whatever else the drummer needs so he knows what's going on in the song. Then once all the drums are tracked you record the music to them. Also, something I always like to emphasize to people... turn the metronome off once the drums are recorded. The only time I leave any ticking in there is if the drums rest for an extended period of time. But you want the music on with the drums, not the metronome. The drummer may speed up and slow down slightly, which is OK. In the end everything needs to be synched to him.
Click to expand...

AMEN! very good words.
 
Most of my bands first album was done with the drums recorded last. If you record to a click/drummachine, it shouldn't have many problems.
 
prestomation said:
Most of my bands first album was done with the drums recorded last. If you record to a click/drummachine, it shouldn't have many problems.
Click to expand...


agreed, if you use a click and everything else is right on beat, then I see no reason why you couldn't do that... However, do you really want too is my question? I just know that it would take a pretty good drummer in order to do this task... Because lets be honest, unless your spending a heck of a lot of time on this then you probably will have a couple little tiny things that might not be noticed if you were to play off your drummer as opposed to off the guitars/click... But I guess it all depends on the players ability/engineers ability to hear flaws in the timing/music. Well, that is just my 2 cents, nothing more...
 
But if the drummer is playing to the guitars, etc...and using the same click or drum machine beat they tracked to, it should be fine. I much rather do my drum tracks last after tracking everything to a drum machine.
 
i've found that some drummers are just not good studio musicians (this is not just drummers, but can be anyone in the band), and that makes it really hard for them to record after the fact... it can depend a lot on what the drummer usually listens to when playing too, or if he/she usually leads the changes then it might be tougher for them to follow.

gl
 
Yep!

I watched a tv show the other week, it was actually a Nirvana special. And it showed a lot of studio footage from when they recorded Nevermind. From what I saw while they were looking for a new drummer ( they finally found Dave Grohl) and what happened was Kurt went into the studio and he laid all the guitar and bass and vocals down. And then Dave Grohl came in later and did the drum tracks last. From what I understood, however, is that Dave is a good drummer, so it wasnt terribly difficult for him. Thats how they recorded most of Nevermind, and as you know...nevermind went platnium. So I guess it's possible to do drum tracks last, if your drummer is good, and your guitars and bass have good timing. Personaly, I lay down the guitar, vocals, bass and then fill it in with drums, but i use a Metronome for my timing. :) Hope that helps.

;)
 
I like to record drums first, to a metronome. Then add instruments; often we wind up re-recording the drums just catch a particular detail of the guitar or bass. Alternatively, sometimes the drums inspire the guitar or bass to be retracked. In either case, the song is constantly being reworked to fit the new tracks. It takes a long time, but the result is usually good.
 
mick8569 said:
my mates band just recorded, and obviously did the drums first. the drummer uses an electronic kit and they just saved it as audio however its pretty average, the cymbal is overpowering, toms are wierd, cant really hear bass drum. anyway they tried re-recording the drums while the drummer listened to the rest of the band but during the song he said that it changed tempo slightly (as no click track was used).

any advise? do u think he should be able to get it if he gives it a few goes? from a guitarists perspective i think he should just listen to the music and follow along, but u drummers are natural leaders i spose :rolleyes: (maybe i shouldnt be sarcastic when asking for help)

thanks guys,
mick.
Click to expand...

SonicClang touched on this somewhere in his post, but adding a click track manually will help _alot_. I had to do this once for an already recorded classical guitar piece that I was adding percussion (congas, shaker, and a bell) to. The guitar player wasn't in perfect mechanical time, so trying to sync him to a click didn't work (which is going to be the case for you since they didn't use a click). What I ended up doing is just playing a clave on all four beats, and after a couple of takes, I was with him when he sped up and slowed down (breath, I guess in this style of music). Then I used that as my click for the other parts, and lastly, removed the clave from the mix. Of course as people also mentioned the better the drummer the easier it will be, but a click will help a lot.
 
One of the great things about recording the drums last is that you can spend more time on proper micing and tuning if you need to.
 
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