Cakewalk Express Gold and multitracking, please

  • Thread starter Thread starter Julia
  • Start date Start date
J

Julia

New member
Hi, friends...

I've finally hooked up some gear, and I'm trying to record using my PC...I have an AWE 64 Gold soundcard which I suspect is not full duplex, but to be honest, I'm not certain of that. I am using Cakewalk Express Gold...it's really fun...I'm kind of amazed at the sound quality, really. But here's my problem...and I'll bet it's a common one...I promise I've read through the help files again and again...even performed the tutorials, and for the life of me I cannot seem to get this thing to allow me to listen to the track I've already recorded, while I'm recording the second track.

Ideally, of course, I would then like to play back tracks 1 and 2 while I work on recording track 3...then I'd like to hear tracks 1, 2, and 3 while laying down track 4. Why is it that I cannot hear the previously recorded track(s) while recording the next track?

Is this perhaps a matter of a half-duplex card, really? It just doesn't seem to make sense to me. I mean...who would/could record multiple tracks without hearing the track(s) they've already laid down?

If somebody can tell me how I can multi-track without buying a new soundcard, you would truly make my day. :)

Thanks in advance for any assistance I might find out on the boards. I love this place.

Awesome days all around...

Julia
 
According to http://www.creativelabs.com/sound/64-gold/specs.html it looks like the AWE64 is full duplex. I suspect it's either a setting in the recording software your using, or a setting somewhere in the AWE64 software.

Check this out: Right Click on My Computer. Select Properties, under Sound Video and Game Controllers. Double Click on your sound card listed there, Should say something like AWE64 Gold. You will see a bunch of tabs across the top - General/Settings/Driver/Resources. Under Settings, is their a check box for "Duplex"?
 
Yep, my soundcard IS full duplex...

Thank you very much for helping me to check that out. I really appreciate your help. So...my soundcard is indeed a full duplex card...that is good news. I did check the settings as you kindly suggested, and "Allow full duplex" is indeed checked. I must be doing something else wrong, I guess.

Thanks very much for your suggestion. I would greatly appreciate any further advice you might have for me.

Thanks again. :)

Julia
 
one other thing

Another thing you may to check. Go to Control Panel>Multimedia. Check the devices in there listed for Playback and recording. Click on advanced tab and move both faders to the highest quality setting.

Within your recording software itself, there should be some area that lists Input Wave Device, Output Wave Device. Check the sampling rate etc.

The help files withing the program can sometimes tell you where these settings, try using duplex as a keyword.
 
Thanks, but...

Thank you very much, Emeric. I did try all of that before asking on this thread, hoping that I could sort out this issue on my own. Still no luck, though. I'll keep trying, and I certainly would appreciate any help anyone might be able to send my way.

Thanks so much.

Julia
 
too weird...

Well, it seems I can SOMETIMES play back one track while listening to another, yet I'm having other problems as well now. Believe me, I have been through the Cakewalk Express Gold help file again and again regarding these issues, and I'm just not finding the sources of my troubles. In fact, I even played through all of the tutorials AND those little video thingies they offer...all to no avail.

What is occurring now is that I am obtaining lousy (noisy and very soft) sound, and for some reason which I simply cannot figure out, the track stops. It just stops. It will play a few measures, sometimes 5 or 6, and just stop. So I'm playing along in track 2 with track 1 playing in the background (and the metronome),and the track playing just stops.

I figure this has to be a setting-of-some-sort problem, but I cannot for the life of me figure it out. :(

Anyone using Cakewalk Express Gold I'd love you forever if you could get me multitracking 16 tracks with ease. ;)

At this point, I'm starting to lean toward a stand-alone unit like the BR-8! But I sure do hate to give up...I've got all this equipment, and dammit I want to make it work. ;)

Later, friends...thanks for the help, past and future.

Julia
 
Hi again, Julia...

The bad quality you hear should be only when you are trying to simultaneously record and playback. The card is full duplex in a sense, but it's really kind-of sort-of full duplex -- while it can play back already-recorded tracks, they are played back at a lower sampling rate and hence will sound rather crappy compared to what's actually been recorded. But if you just play they should sound fine.

As to the stopping -- this might be a number of things. First of all, what sort of PC are you running it on? Last year around this time I had a P-200 MMX with an AWE64 and I could barely do anything -- same problems as you. My main problem was the hard drive -- its sustained transfer rate was too low. In February I beefed up the machine with a SB Live card and a Promise Ultra66 UDMA controller, and that helped immensely. You might be able to tweak some settings and get it to work better. Scott Garrigus wrote up a good article on this that's available at Cakewalk's website...

Good luck... hope this helps a little.

-AlChuck
 
Thank you...

Hi, AlChuck...thanks yet again for your helpful response.

I am running an AMD K6-2/350 with 128 megs of RAM...and an AWE 64 Gold soundcard. Whatdya think? Is that the problem? Geez...just when you think you finally have a powerful machine. ;)

I'm currently searching the Cakewalk website for that Scott Garrigus article you mention. No luck finding it as yet, but I'll keep trying. Thanks so much for mentioning it.

Have a wonderful night.

Julia
 
Settings

Julia,
I can't be sure if I remember this correctly, but I used Cakewalk express Gold for about two months until I got CW 9.0 just a few weeks ago. Cakewalk express Gold is limited to four audio tracks so you will not be able to work with 16 until you upgrade to a full version of cakewalk(9.0 is awesome). You can work with it by frequently "submixing" four tracks down to one and then working with some new ones. It will do very well until you get the full version.
As for working with multiple tracks, go into your options menu(in CW express gold) and select audio. Examine your settings there and make sure that your buffers are set high and that you have simultaneous playback and record(under the advanced tab if I remember right) enabled. If nothing that you change in there works then your card probably just can't handle it. Don't depair though, you have options :)

Buy a new sound card.
I know you don't like the idea, but this is really not a big deal. You can get a SBLive MP3 package for between $70-$80 over the net and usually around $100 in stores. It is not the greatest in the world for professional multi-track recording, but is a very good, very inexpensive alternative to the profesional level card which start at around $400. It would definately be cheaper than the stand-alone unit. The SBLive is what I am currently using, and it stands head and shoulders above the AWE64. It doen't offer much in the area of inputs or high bitrate and sampling freqs, but you can playback and record without any problems in quality and it can handle playing ton of tracks simultaneously.

Find out about your hard drive.
Download the "echo reporter" from
http://www.echoaudio.com
This handy utility will perform tests on your hard drive and tell you jut how many tracks and effects it can handle.

Try another multi-tracker.
Cakewalk is obviously not the only game in town. I started home recording on my AMD K6 233 with 96 MB RAM and a 4 gig 5300 rpm hard drive and a $20 avance sound card over 2 years ago with a handy inexpenive yet powerful program called n-track.
http://fasoft.com/
This offers many options and is extremely user friendly. It took me a few minutes to figure out how to do things on n-track that I still can't figure out on cakewalk yet. N-track is great and it takes less RAM, CPU and hard drive than CW and you should be able to get the AWE64 to work pretty well with it. You can download a shareware version of the program from the above link to FASOFT and you will only be barred from doing mixdowns and using more than one effect simultaneously. You can work with Midi and audio so you should have no problems. If you like it I think you can buy the full version for under $50.
I have upgraded to an AMD K6-2 450 w/ 192 MB RAM, 15 gig hard drive and an SBLive card. N-track screams on this machine and Cakewalk is incredible.
I did the song "Barely Alive" mostly with n-track: The mix is not great and I need to work on the vocal, but n-track performed very well. It is located on this web page(if you want to hear it:
http://sonnylarsen.homepage.com/

Well, anyway, good luck, and above all, have fun! As for your eternal love, well one could only hope. . .

[Edited by sonnylarsen on 08-29-2000 at 00:41]
 
Julia,

The Garrigus article is at

http://www.cakewalk.com/tips/proaudio_em_2_99.html

A similar article (though not Cakewalk-specific) is at http://www.musicsolutions.com.au/articles/optimisingwindows.html

The machine you describe should certainly be capable of recording a bunch of tracks and playing back without freezing up. It might be a device conflict between the AWE and something else (the USB controller?.

Now I'm not certain if this is an issue only with PCI soundcards... but check out this article too:

http://www.cakewalk.com/support/docs/videocardtips.html

Do you know what kind of video card you have? If it's a PCI card, that could be the culprit. A lot of video card drivers "hog" the PC bus to inflate their apparent performance at the expense of other devices on the bus.

When I built my current DAW this past spring, I had some subtle problem that boiled down to be the onboard HighPoint UDMA drive controller. It caused Cakewalk to stop suddenly after some time (occasionally almost right away, occasionally after hours, but most commonly after about 10-20 minutes). But my whole computer was hung then, not just Cakewalk. When I replaced the controller with a $35 controller card, the problems disappeared.

Good luck!

-AlChuck
 
Thank you

Gentlemen,

Thank you both very much for your kind responses to my various inquiries. I'm trying the system tweaking now...I've also downloaded a beta version of n-Track, though at first glance it appears to have problems...immediately crashed me. ;)

After that, I'll go back into Cakewalk to see if the tweaking has improved matters at all.

I'm still really considering the BR-8, though I maintain my original concerns about the time limitations with those darned zip disks.

It's just that, as much as the PC recording is intriguing me, and as much of the ability to record via PC as I have at present with my current system, it's seeming to me as though too many things can go wrong, and that I'd be upgrading constantly, making the stand-alone unit perhaps ultimately more cost-effective overall. I mean...if I need to buy a new soundcard, and a new video card (I have an SiS 6326, AlChuck)...and then a mixer with preamps and effects, and then a drum machine, etc. etc. etc...it might be best to just go ahead and grab a BR-8 and a programmable drum machine and call it good for now. I don't know...I certainly continue to welcome any and all thoughts and advice! :)

Again, thanks immensely for the help thus far. You've both been very kind to take the time, and I am very much appreciative of your efforts on my behalf.

Julia

P.S. SonnyLarsen, your music sounds great! :)
 
Julia,

From my vantage I'd say stick with it a little more before throwing in the towel. You can probably work around everything and not buy anything else unless your hard drive/controller combination is too slow. Another thing on the Cakewalk website (hope I'm not suffocating you with information here!) talks about the sustained transfer rate requirements for smooth operation (3/1 MB/s or higher) and offers a link to a tool that you can run off the web to test your PC. See

http://www.cakewalk.com/support/faq.htm#38

But of course, if you had the BR-8 or something like it, you'd probably be recording right now rather than troubleshooting or hanging out here looking for solutions...

-AlChuck
 
Again, thank you

AlChuck...thanks a million for the continued suggestions. I'm on my way to the link right now. I really appreciate your being so nice and so helpful. :)

I'll stick with it a while longer!

Julia
 
Oh, brother...

Well, guys...I've done everything you've suggested. And I must say that going through and tweaking my system according to the directions on the various sites to which you kindly sent me has truly made a difference. But here are two new problems I'd like to ask for help with, if it wouldn't be too much trouble, and if you are familiar with these problems off hand.

First, I just went ahead and tried recording 4 or 5 tracks (short ones) using Cakewalk, and it was really cool. AND no stopping! It finally allowed me to record numerous tracks...HOWEVER...I recorded numerous GUITAR tracks. What I'm doing is putting my guitar through a small mixer, (actually, just to try this stuff out, I'm using my old analog 4 track as a "mixer" of sorts, just to run things through it), and it recorded numerous guitar tracks just fine...without a hitch. But when I tried to add a vocal track, no way...and nothing I do will fix that problem. I've tried adjusting every setting I can find, and my vocal track (running my mic through the makeshift "mixer" just as I did my guitar) simply will NOT record. Frustrating.

And also, and this problem worries me very much, because I "tweaked" my system according to the directions in the articles, but it involved messing with system.ini etc., and that makes me nervous. The scary thing is that now, when I try to run Cakewalk, I keep getting a crash...well a Cakewalk crash, that is. It causes a general protection fault, and sometimes I get a message related to a .dll file. I kept trying and trying to run the program despite this continually occurring, and lo and behold, one time it started! That's how I was able to put down the guitar tracks. Now I keep trying to run the program again, and I'm getting the same problem.

By the way...I did try n-Track, and so far it's not working for me, but I'm sure with some studying it would. I would like to continue to work with Cakewalk Express Gold as long as I can, but the general protection faults, inability to start, and .dll errors really concern me, and of course my music is useless without the ability to record the vocals.

Any help would be so greatly appreciated, as always.

Thanks so much.

Have an awesome night.

Julia
 
Update...

Well, I went ahead and changed the [vcache] thingie in the system.ini file (the only suggestion which I hadn't tried before, 'cause I'm a big chicken when it comes to altering those .ini files!)...and then I rebooted my system, and I seem to be able to run the Cakewalk program now. I think perhaps the faults and errors may have had something to do with the fact that I had tried running n-Track just before that? (I'm not sure that makes sense, but...just a thought.) I was not running the two programs together though.

Anyway, I wanted to come back and update you on that issue so that I wouldn't bother you for nothing in that regard, but I do still have the HORRIFIC problem (maiden in distress signal there) of the inability to record vocals...so...I'm hoping for more thoughts and suggestions from the pros. I hate to be such a bother, but I promise to pass these kind favors on in the world...and just think of all the goodness we'll get running. :)

Thanks again.

Julia
 
??? Don't know why the mic shouldn't work... are you monitoring through headphones while you record? If you put the 4-track into Record mode, do the meters show a signal? I suspect that either the mic is a condesor and needs phantom power, which it's not getting from the 4-track, or the mixer preamp's input gain is too low to pass a decent signal.

That crash problem sounds familar. Can it be this?

http://www.cakewalk.com/support/docs/audioextensiondll.htm

Here's more info (gulp):

http://www.cakewalk.com/support/faq.htm#6

I had a similar problem last year, and the Registry clean and reinstall fixed it. Check out (just one more, I promise)

http://www.cakewalk.com/support/docs/tougherrors.html

about half-way down.

Good luck! Sounds like you're getting there!

-AlChuck
 
re: Inability to record vocals...

THanks for your thoughts, AlChuck. In response to your questions:

"are you monitoring through headphones while you record?"

Yes, I am, and it sounds great...just won't record.

"If you put the 4-track into Record mode, do the meters show a signal?"

Yes, Sir...they sure do.

"I suspect that either the mic is a condesor and needs phantom power, which it's not getting from the 4-track,"

Hmmm...that's interesting. I can record to the 4 track just fine with that mic, of course. So...do I need some sort of NON-condensor mic, or something which makes my mic non-condensor? And/or...how does one get phantom power...whatever that is. I wonder if I were to get a regular mixer, if it would work. On the other hand, the guitars record just awesome when running them through the 4-track as a makeshift mixer, so...I'm confused.

"or the mixer preamp's input gain is too low to pass a decent signal."

I'm not sure what that means exactly, but it does seem to make sense in a not-sure-what-it-means-exactly sort of way. If the mixer preamp's input gain is too low to pass a decent signal, though, could I still have recorded using the 4-track analog unit for all these years?

I was just thinking...I have a little Yamaha practice amp here. Maybe I could put the mic through that, and then put the amp through the 4-track (makeshift mixer...hehe), and then see if THAT boosts the "preamp" situation at all. ;)

Truly, what I am trying to do here is to assess whether I want to record using my PC, and put my money toward a decent little mixer, basic effects like chorus, reverb, and delay, and a drum machine...and go ahead and do my recording all via PC...OR...put my money toward a Boss BR-8 or Roland VS-840 stand-alone. Going the latter route would cost me infinitely more money, which I really don't have to spend right now...thus, I'm trying really hard to figure out this PC recording thing, because I have nearly all the equipment I need right here at my fingertips, short of the mixer, effects, and drum machine. A stand-alone unit costs well more than that, the zip disks aren't inexpensive and are TERRIBLY time-limiting, and I'd still need at least a programmable drum machine, so the expenditures would be greater. That's why I'm working toward the PC recording route. Not sure what to do next, but perhaps I should rent a mixer just long enough to try recording vocals through it, and see what happens.

Thanks for the other urls...I'm on my way to read them now. And by the way...I don't mind all the information you send to me, or the articles to send me to read. In fact, it's quite the opposite. I am an information junkie, and everything I read enables me to know just a little bit more about a subject which I know VERY little about, but truly wish to know a LOT more. You're helping me with that, and I am very much appreciative.

It's a patient man who puts up with newbies like me, Al. You're a very nice person to spend your time trying to help me along like this.

Have a fantastic day.

Julia
 
OH, BOY!

Okay, Al! Now we're getting somewhere. Your post made me think about a few things, and so I took to fiddling with the controls on the 4-track makeshift mixer and found that panning that little line vs. mic knob makes things happen. In fact, even when I play my guitar, which one would think would use that knob panned all the way over to the "line" side, I actually have to turn that knob about half way between "line" and "mic." I'm not sure why...it's weird, I know. (See why I'm moving to digital recording?) ;)

Anyway, I do have a voice signal now. Some noise to go along with it and a flat voice because I have no effects to use, but I do have the signal, nice and strongly, and so I'm one step ahead of where I was last night, which is thrilling to me. :)

Okay...so...any advice on what's next here? I'm sorely in need of some effects to use...chorus, delay, reverb...(I'm not sure HOW to use them, but I know I like the sound embellishments they produce, and I know I can learn how to use them.) Would I now look to purchase a mixing board with those effects on board? (I think n-Track has those effects, or some of them, but gee I really didn't like n-Track at all when I tried it last night...but I'll try it again, just in case.)

Just wondering your thoughts on where I go next. Mixer with effects, and drum machine perhaps?

I read an older post of yours somewhere out there on this board, and I think you had used a little Mackie which you liked, which had nice mic preamps, and which wasn't too expensive. Did that have effects as well? Or where do you obtain your effects?

Thanks a billion for all of your thoughts, advice, and shared experience.

Again I wish you a wonderful day.

Julia
 
oh, geez...

Sorry to write yet another post, BUT...I just went back to try some more recording, and here's what happened. First, I did try n-Track again...it seems to be so popular, and does offer effects, so I thought I'd work through the tutorial and try it again. I really don't like it, and it pops and pips all over the place...can't get a clean recording, which was easy with Cakewalk.

SO...I closed out n-Track, rebooted my system, (thought that might have contributed to my crash problems last night), and brought up Cakewalk. I put down two guitar tracks and a bass track, then I added the vocal track, and now what do I get but fits and starts again...that problem from yesterday where it just stops dead. The song is playing along, and poof...everything stops again. I really thought that all that system tweaking I did yesterday, (thanks to the articles you pointed me toward, Al) fixed that problem, but I guess that was too good to be true.

Know what I'm thinking now? (Bet you can hardly wait to find out.) I'm starting to feel like too many things can go wrong with PC recording...too many unforseen problems like this. One day everything works grandly, and the next you can't get a recording down.

I hate to sound wishy-washy, but I guess I'm feeling pretty wishy-washy when I say that I'm starting to lean once again toward the stand-alone unit. Sigh. Discouraging.

All thoughts/advice/encouragement appreciated. :)

Julia
 
Julia,

Happy to see that you resolved the mic situation. Are you plugging an electric guitar straight into the 4-track? That would not be a line level signal, which would explain why you have to slide the trim control towards Mic. You're essentially preamping the guitar signal with the preamp built into the mixer channel of the 4-track.

Re the mic thing, if you hear it clearly, it's working, and it's probably a dynamic mic and so doesn't need phantom power. Typically for a mic you will need the trim slider pretty close to the Mic end and then adjust with the fader.

Re the other situation, did you try the clean-up, uninstall, and re-install of Cakewalk yet? It takes a little time but it might be worth it.

Also, did you check to make sure that no devices are conflicting? Even if the Control Panel seems to show them as OK, there still might be a conflict if two devices are sharing the same IRQ. Have you tried creating a second hardware profile that has everything non-essential disabled? (I forget just how many tips are in those articles I pointed you to). Like the modem or network card, USB if you're not using it while recording, etc? And do you have the SB AWE's DOS emulation mode disabled?

I guess I've about run clean of ideas on this front. I hope you can resolve it. If you do go the BR-8 route, remember that you can use the computer and the AWE as a drum machine and synthesizer -- trigger it through MIDI.

On the effects end, you can run DirectX effects with Cakewalk Pro Audio and Guitar Studio, but I'm not sure if you can with Express Gold. But with the CPU you have you might have a limited amount of power to use more than one or two at a time without affecting your track count. If you just need to play with a vocal track, you can probably get by. Or else apply the effects destructively (meaning not in real time, process the track all at once and actually changing the recorded track's data rather than running the data through it as it plays).

Again, good luck, and keep us posted! PC recording can be a real pain to get going with, but once the ducks are in a row, it's great.

-AlChuck
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top