Cables: XLR vs. TRS, Balanced?

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guitar roy

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I am a newbie using the Korg D1600 and have a few general questions regarding mic's and their cables. We are using dynamic mics (SM58, SM57, PG52, etc.).

1. Is a balanced cable always preferred over an unbalanced cable?

2. Are all XLR cables balanced?

3. Is there any advantage of using an XLR balanced cable over a balanced TRS cable? If there is no difference, then that would give me much more flexibility using the D1600 since there are only four XLR inputs and no phantom power is needed for dynamic mics.

4. Are all TRS cables balanced?

5. Can you have a balanced guitar cable?

6. How can you tell the difference between a balanced mono TRS cable and a stereo TRS cable? Can a stereo TRS cable be balanced or unbalanced (if so, how can you tell)?

7. What impact or harm will occur if phantom power of the D1600 is turned on when dynamic mics are plugged in the XLR input?

8. Thoughts on Behringer's CT100 cable tester?

Thank you.

Roy
 
Originally posted by guitar roy
1. Is a balanced cable always preferred over an unbalanced cable?

Yes

2. Are all XLR cables balanced?

Yes

3. Is there any advantage of using an XLR balanced cable over a balanced TRS cable?

Not really, except that the XLR has a locking mechanism to avoid unwanted disconnects.

If there is no difference, then that would give me much more flexibility using the D1600 since there are only four XLR inputs and no phantom power is needed for dynamic mics.

What do you mean by flexability?

4. Are all TRS cables balanced?

Yes, unless it's an insert cable which has 2 connectors on one end.

5. Can you have a balanced guitar cable?

Yes, but the guitar has to be wired for it

6. How can you tell the difference between a balanced mono TRS cable and a stereo TRS cable? Can a stereo TRS cable be balanced or unbalanced (if so, how can you tell)?

The wire used in TRS and XLS cables consists of 2 conductors surrounded by a common shield. The 'stereo' distinction is deceiving since it really depends on what you're plugging it into. The same cable can be used for either a mono balanced signal or a stereo unbalanced signal (as in the case of channel inserts)


7. What impact or harm will occur if phantom power of the D1600 is turned on when dynamic mics are plugged in the XLR input?

I've never tried it. I suggest you don't either. I imagine different mics would handle it differently.

8. Thoughts on Behringer's CT100 cable tester?

Always good to have a tester floating around. Remember to wiggle each cord where it enters the plug while testing to check for intermittant connections.

Thank you.

Your welcome
 
Just a clarification......

Actually, the XLR or TRS cable by itself is not "balanced" - it's simply 2-conductor....

Whether it's a balanced circuit or not depends on the gear connected to it!

(ie, it's not the wire, it's the gear.......)
 
guitar roy said:


7. What impact or harm will occur if phantom power of the D1600 is turned on when dynamic mics are plugged in the XLR input?
Thank you.

Roy

No harm should occur to your Dynamic mics as long as you wiring/ cables are good I guess that some very old mic might be set up different and might suffer??

I run all kinds of dynamic's with phantom power on all the time, never a problem. Grant it I don't have your unit but I have two boards now and one in the past that I have done it with.

Later

F.S.
 
Re: Just a clarification......

Blue Bear Sound said:
Actually, the XLR or TRS cable by itself is not "balanced" - it's simply 2-conductor....

Whether it's a balanced circuit or not depends on the gear connected to it!

(ie, it's not the wire, it's the gear.......)

Thanks for clarifying, My description was not very clear on that point.
 
as a general rule, any properly-designed dynamic should have no issues with phantom power-it should be an open, irrelevant circuit issue. the real trouble is with ribbon mics. older ribbon mics had a design issue that basically made them a filament when phantom power was applied. this is not good.
 
Thank you everyone.

Hawking, what I meant by flexibilty is the D1600 can record 8 tracks simultaneously by only has 4 XLR inputs (the other 4 are balanced TRS). So if there is no sonic downside to using the balanced TRS instead of the XLR inputs, then I do not need to limit myself to 4 mics at a time.

I assume most guitars and basses are not wired for a balanced connection?

Roy
 
Correct, however, if you use a pod or many other amp modeling devices for your guitar, chances are good the outputs on the device will be balanced.
 
You don't need to limit yourself with 4 mics. On most devices like your Korg, the TRS inputs are line level inputs though, not mic inputs. Meaning that there's no preamp in the circuit. To avoid stuffing my foot in my mouth (as I've done many times before) I checked the specs on the Korg website, and although the TRS inputs don't have phantom power, they have the same input impedance as the XLR inputs. Basically, this means that they do have preamps. If you want to use mics on those channels, you'll just need to get cables with XLR on the mic end and TRS on the Korg end and you're in business.

You are correct in assuming that most guitars do not have balanced outputs. Some electric/acoustic guitars do. Most of the time this will be obvious as there will be an XLR jack on the instrument. Some guitars also have stereo outputs. The jack looks and functions like a normal mono connection if you plug a regular guitar cable into it. If you use the appropriate cabling though, you can send different strings to different places in the mix. This scheme is further confusing because some guitars have 3 jacks. One for left, one for right, and one for the standard mono output. In all cases except when there is an XLR jack, the signals are unbalanced. Whether or not the instrument is using a TRS style cable or not has no effect on the 'Balancing'.

As for the POD, The PODxt has balanced outputs. They can also be used as unbalanced outputs simply by using a regular cable. Even with the balanced cables, they're a bit noisy for studio work (IMHO), and the connection from the guitar is still unbalanced. It's usually a good idea to keep the unbalanced cable as short as possible.

That said, I thought I would explain exactly what is meant by 'balanced' vs. 'unbalanced. Perhaps this is more information than is necessary, but I'm bored, the lawn is mowed, it's sunday, and the kids are finnally someplace else making the usual kid noises.


Really, it's fairly simple. In an unbalanced system, the center conductor carries the signal whilst the outer conductor (shield) carries the return or gound. Any noise that the cable picks up along the way should bounce off of the shield. Noise can be a nasty, persistant bastard though, and some of it will usually find a way through the shield. Now that there's noise on the inner conductor, it gets passed along to every other piece of gear connected to it. Usually ending up eminating from your wonderfully accurate near field monitors, which faithfully reproduce that pesky noise in the form of hum and buzz and the occasional pop when the fridge turns on.

In a balanced system, whether it be XLR or TRS connectors, there's 2 conductors surrounded by a common shield. The output of your balanced gear spits out 2 seperate signals, one for each inner conductor. These 2 signals are identical except in one aspect. One of them is 180 degrees out of phase. So the kids want something to drink and open the fridge again. As usual, they leave it open and the poor thing kicks on in a vain effort to keep my roast beef cool. On the other side of the house, my balanced cable just picked that up, just the way the unbalanced cable did. Same noise, but now it's on 2 conductors, not one. The next piece of balanced gear in the signal chain gets these 2 out-of-phase signals and compares them to each other. In a perfect world, they should completely cancel each other out (remember they are out of phase). Well, the fridge noise is the same on both of them (in phase) and hence doesn't cancel out. The said piece of gear sees the remaining signal (fridge noise) and throws it away. What's left is a noise free signal to do with what we please.

In effect, the balanced cable does nothing at all by itself. It's the gear at either end that is doing the work. It's the analog equivelent of digital error checking. The TRS connector in itself is used because it takes up less space than an XLR.

Something to note. By far the most common use for TRS is actually unbalanced. Insert jacks on most mixers are using one of the inner conductors for the outgoing signal and the other one for the returning signal. This reduces the required number of jacks by 50%. Since these to signals are not the same (you just passed it through a compressor or something) there can be no error checking and hence no noise reduction. If a peice of gear has a 'Send' AND a 'return' jack that are TRS, the signal is balanced and you get to reap the benefits of noise free recording, even if your roast beef is a little warm.
 
Hawking,

Thanks again for the complete response. This was very helpful and much appreciated. I am going to find some Switchcraft adapters to covert the end of my mic XLR cable to a 1/4" TRS plug.

I think I understand this now. So a TRS cable used in a stereo application will always be unbalanced.

Is it true that an unbalanced cable could be used with equipment that is setup for a TRS cable and will only lose the benefit of a balanced circuit?

Is the converse true, a TRS cable could be used in a mono unbalanced system (eg Guitar) with no loss of sonic quality (vs. using a regular non-TRS cable)?



While we are on the subject of cables, I have heard that a cable connecting a speaker cabinet to a guitar amplifier should be unshielded (two wires in cable casing), while a cable that connects an instrument or effect box to the amp should be shielded (one wire wrapped in copper shielding in a cable casing) . Is this correct?

I can understand why shielding is good for a guitar cable, but why is not good for a speaker cable?

Thanks again.

Roy
 
Originally posted by guitar roy
Hawking,

Thanks again for the complete response. This was very helpful and much appreciated. I am going to find some Switchcraft adapters to covert the end of my mic XLR cable to a 1/4" TRS plug.

I think I understand this now. So a TRS cable used in a stereo application will always be unbalanced.


Yes.

Is it true that an unbalanced cable could be used with equipment that is setup for a TRS cable and will only lose the benefit of a balanced circuit?

Yes, except in the case of channel inserts where you need to use a 'breakout' cable. Although it is a TRS connection, it is not balanced.

Is the converse true, a TRS cable could be used in a mono unbalanced system (eg Guitar) with no loss of sonic quality (vs. using a regular non-TRS cable)?

Yes

While we are on the subject of cables, I have heard that a cable connecting a speaker cabinet to a guitar amplifier should be unshielded (two wires in cable casing), while a cable that connects an instrument or effect box to the amp should be shielded (one wire wrapped in copper shielding in a cable casing) . Is this correct?

Yes. The connection from the amplifier to the speaker cabinet needs to be speaker wire. It should be the appropriately sized to the size of the amplifier. A standard mono instrument cable will work at very low power settings, but will certainly do damage to either the amplifier, the cabinet, or itself if the power is turned up. Unscrew the barrel of one of your instrument cables and you will see that in even the highest quality cables, the actual conductors are very small.

I can understand why shielding is good for a guitar cable, but why is not good for a speaker cable?

In very high-end stereo systems, even the speaker wires are shielded. Speaker wire can and occasionally does pick up noise. But since the amount of power traveling through the wire is so high compared to the noise, it is usually not as much of a problem. Microphones, guitars, and even the higher power 'line level' signals are much closer in signal strength to any noise that might get picked up and is therefor much more noticable.

Thanks again.

My pleasure
 
Excelent response Hawking!

It should be pointed out the non-shieled cables can not be use for signal cables either.

It works both ways. Use a speaker cable on your guitar and you will know what I mean right away. You will get massive feedback etc.

This is why I recommend that you never buy round speaker cables unless they are twisted pair and obvious. Sooner or later someone will try to use it for a guitar cable or something.

F.S.
 
Good point. It never dawned on me to use a speaker cable on a guitar. Now that you said that, I'll have to try it. Just to see what happens. OK, maybe I'll take your word for it.
 
It's more fun to use a guitar cord as a speaker cable... it's smells great when the amplifier burns up. lol
 
ya but you don't get that killer feed back:D

Who's willing to try both at once!! That should be exciting!!!


F.S.
 
Hawking said:
Good point. It never dawned on me to use a speaker cable on a guitar. Now that you said that, I'll have to try it. Just to see what happens. OK, maybe I'll take your word for it.

Me either but, it did to our guitarist:eek: :D

In his deffence.... it looked a whole lot like a guitar cable.

F.S.
 
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