Bypassing the Mixer COMPLETELY.

[ambi]

Damn i gotta disconnect my internet. Now i've read more about the RME multiface hammerfall i don't know that i can settle for a Delta 44! This could be very useful in the future for recording projects for others, with the 8 inputs.

Do you know anything about this card?

 

[alfalfa]

RME make very high quality products.
However given the rest of your setup I dont think you will notice the benefits of an RME multiface. I would spend more on mics, pres, instruments etc rather than spending so much of your budget on the soundcard. You probably dont require the quality improvement of an RME over a Delta with the setup you are considering.

Ask yourself whether you really need that many high quality (and expensive) inputs and outputs. If you dont, an alternative is to get a delta 66, Audiophile or Mia for a start and if you need better convertors in the future, upgrade with standalone ADCs and DACs for the SPDIF I/O (a delta 44 does not have spdif so is not upgradable). Again it all depends on your total budget and what you plan to do with it.

ps if you think the RME is good check out the lynx 2.

 

[ambi]

Yea that is a very good point.

I'm thinking of getting a Pair of SP B1's and a pair of Marshal MXL 603s.
They are cheaper but i hear very good. And i'd start with maybe a DMP3 and work from there.

I don't need that many inputs. But in the future if i record for other people i would, but i guess i can always upgrade then. I heard the converters are a LOT better, so if i added up 20 tracks recorded with say a delta, or with the RME, the RME mix would sound a lot better. Maybe on individual tracks it wouldn't be as huge, but on the whole mix it is noticable. But i don't really know, i don't even think i'd need that much extra.

And like you said i'm not gonna have any killer mics or preamps, just good/decent stuff. No crap but just solid stuff.

 

[alfalfa]

The RME is great but is 4-5 times the price of an audiophile or mia. Just be sure you need it if you are going to spend that kind of cash.

I think the weak link in your equipment setup will be the variety and quality of your mics, pres and effects units and maybe your instruments - not the convertors on your soundcard. Instead of the RME consider getting better / more variety of:
pres (eg RNP, grace 101)
mics (eg C1, T3, V67/69, sm57, Rode NTK, U195 as well as the ones you mentioned http://www.piemusic.com/mp/micproj.html)
compressors (eg RNC)
reverbs (eg lexicon, TC)
plugin effects (eg ultrafunk, waves)

I am not sure what instruments you are using but the quality of those will have a huge effect on your sound eg a crap acoustic guitar will always sound crap no matter how much good stuff you use to record it, and good acoustics are not cheap.

Anyway those are some thoughts. If you can afford to get the RME as well as all the other stuff then go for it. You wont have to upgrade your soundcard for a long while. Otherwise consider the alternatives.

 

[ambi]

Yea that is a good point. I currently have the waves gold softwear bundle and logic audio 5. What about the reverb units? I've never been able to find a really good plugin reverb, i've heard that plugin reverbs just aren't that great. How much would a good hardware reverb unit cost? Would i just play the track i want reverbed through an output on my soundcard, into the reverb unit, and then back into an input of the soundcard and re-record it?

 

[alfalfa]

Would i just play the track i want reverbed through an output on my soundcard, into the reverb unit, and then back into an input of the soundcard and re-record it?

Yep - I have a lexicon mpx-200 connected to the digital out then back to the digital in of my echo mia.

Do a search on reverbs/effects for more info. I have already mentioned two good brands.

Plugin reverbs are adequate for most home recording jobs if you have enough cpu power, and to me are more convenient to use. I found the ultrafunk reverb to have low cpu usage, a useful stereo width parameter, decent sound quality and most importantly is affordable.

 

[ambi]

Yes i think it is.

This also raises the questions if i should get an SPDF input/output card.
The delta 44 doesn't, but the delta 66 does.
But because the Delta 44 dropped in price and the 66 did NOT, it will be something like 350 for the 44, and 550 for the 66.
So nearly double for just SPDF.
hmm.

 

[alfalfa]

Tough choice.

The main problem with not having spdif is that to upgrade your soundcard (either in terms of sound quality or more inputs) you have to buy a new one and throw out/sell your delta 44. Though m-audio claim you can run multiple deltas without using spdif to sync the clocks, i've read many people having problems doing that on the sound on sound forums.

Do you definitely need 4+ inputs? If not get the audiophile or mia. Plus consider that you might be getting gear that uses spdif that you can use to add 2ins/outs eg I use the lexicon mpx200 to give me a total of 4ins/4outs with my mia.

ps that is quite a big price difference you've been quoted between the delta 44 and 66 - the 66 is usually only a third more expensive than a 44.

 

[mkeene]

Just wanted to say thank you to you guys. I am practically in the same position as ambi, and this thread has really helped me out.

 

[ambi]

Yer welcome, feel free to input any things you're doing differently.

So Alfalfa by adding a piece of gear through the SPDF i'd be able to use that at the sime time as the regular inputs?

So i have 2 inputs on the audiophile, and then say 2 more from another piece of gear going through the spdf. I'd be able to record 4 tracks at the same time in Logic Audio, or whatever program?

and the price difference is because the delta 44 dropped in price where i am and the delta 66 did not. Before the difference was maybe 100 Canadian, now it's more like 250 canadian.

This also decreased the price gap between the Audiophile and the 44, making it easier to step up to 4 ins and outs. But the RCA would be nice on the audiophile so i can easily hook it up to the Rotel, and the SPDF for future expansion.

 

[alfalfa]

So Alfalfa by adding a piece of gear through the SPDF i'd be able to use that at the sime time as the regular inputs?

Yup

So i have 2 inputs on the audiophile, and then say 2 more from another piece of gear going through the spdf. I'd be able to record 4 tracks at the same time in Logic Audio, or whatever program?

Yup

If you need 4 inputs now then the simplest thing to do is get a delta 44/66 (maybe there is some way you can get a better deal on the 66). This saves you having to worry about how to use the spdif inputs to get those 2 extra ins.

If you only think you will use 2 inputs regularly but may want 4 in the future then get the audiophile or mia. There are a few mic pres that have spdif outputs that you can use to get those 2 extra ins - the upcoming Studio Projects vtb-2 is one, Mindprint di port, Art are some others. Then there are rack effects units like lexicon mpx 200/500 that also use spdif ins and outs. Then there are dedicated ADCs and DACs like lucid, apogee, benchmark media.

If you need 4 but may need 6 in the future then get the delta 66. The delta 44 or audiophile limit you to a max of 4 inputs.

 

[ambi]

My situation right now is, i will usually need 2, maybe 4 in the future. So i think the Audiophile or Mia would be best then.

So with your lexicon unit you run the signal from the preamp to the lexicon, and then into the SPDF?

Now if you wanted to do this just for the extra inputs. but didn't actually need any effects, could you turn the lexicon on, but not add any effects and just have the signal pass through for the SPDF output?

Aside from adding a little extra noise would this be possible?

Also how is the lexicon?

 

[alfalfa]

My situation right now is, i will usually need 2, maybe 4 in the future. So i think the Audiophile or Mia would be best then.

I think either is sufficient for your needs and has room to expand/upgrade and you can save your cash in the meantime.

So with your lexicon unit you run the signal from the preamp to the lexicon, and then into the SPDF?

Yep

Now if you wanted to do this just for the extra inputs. but didn't actually need any effects, could you turn the lexicon on, but not add any effects and just have the signal pass through for the SPDF output?

Yep - I can use the lexicon purely as an ADC in that situation without any effects (there 'clean' mode on the lexicon for that exact purpose).

Also how is the lexicon?

The mpx200 has the typical lexicon sound to its reverbs. Whether you like it or not is personal preference. The sound quality is virtually identical to the mpx500 to me when using the digital inputs and outputs (I suspect the mpx500 has higher quality analog inputs and outputs) but has limited editing of the reverb / effects parameters. My partner doesnt mind this since she is a musician and not an audio engineer and just likes to cycle through presets till she finds the sound she likes. In the end she prefers to use plugins for effects just because she finds it more convenient, even if it doesnt sound as good.

As an ADC/DAC, the lexicon sounds pretty close in quality to the Mia. The weak link in our setup is the behringer mixer - maybe thats why I cant hear much difference. I suspect if I did measurements the Mia is better but the difference is not like the obvious difference between the Mia and my old sblive. Also the mpx200 is limited to 44.1, which is not an issue for us since thats the sample rate we use.
Given how much my partner prefers the convenience of plugins, we probably would not buy it again in hindsight, though she has used the mpx200 when gigging. Everyones situation is different.