Bypassing the Mixer COMPLETELY.

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ambi

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For a home setup i've come to the conclusion that a mixer might not be best for me. I don't need six so so channels of mackie or soundcraft preamps. I just need a couple really good preamps, or maybe a few different types of preamps so i can match the right preamp for the right job. I don't need any of the features of the mixer accept for the preamps i don't think. So i think in theory i could get away with a card like a delta 44, some mics and some outboard preamps. But my question is where do i control my monitors volume from? Assuming doing it from the windows volume control isn't idea, or headphones and stuff like that? Right now with my sblive i can't monitor what i'm recording while i record it, due to the delay. I could however when i had rented a mackie 1202, i had the output of the computer going into the mixing board, and i mixed the signal being recorded into the headphone mix, which counteracted any latency from the hard drive. Now if i got a card like a delta could i just use the softwear monitoring in logic audio and not have to worry about a mixer to do that? I'm hoping the latency wouldn't be an issue with a delta. Also would it be a good idea to get one of those tiny behringer boards for the monitor volume control and headphone stuff?

I usually just record one person at time. Usually some acoustic guitar, or congas, or electric guitar, or bass, sometimes piano, sometimes steel drums, some times vocals, etc.. So i figured if i got a pair of behrenger ecm8000's, a nice large diaphram condensor mic (AT mic, SP C1, something like that maybe?), and a shure sm57, i'd be doing ok for a start. I have a sm58 already and a art studio mp. And then i could get maybe an RNC, and then about 4 different channels of really solid preamps ontop of the ART. So i would have 2 channels of one brand, and 2 channels of another. So i'd have 2 choices for my stereo recordings, and 3 choices for mono recordings using the ART.

Does this sound like good logic for my position?

A couple of Preamps, a compressor, some of those mics, and some monitoring speakers?

I guess i'm just wondering what i'm missing that i'll need for that headphone mixes and stuff like that, and which things would be best for me.

Budget wise i guess i'm alotting $800 Canadian for the Yorkville YSM1p's. The delta 44 is $350 canadian, the shure sm57 is about $150, i think the studio projects C1 is about $299 canadian, and i'm not sure about the behringer ecm8000s probably around $150 for the pair. Now i can save a bit extra for a better mic, or some better preamps, or whatever. I know that if you buy shit you buy twice. I can't afford a great river preamp and a pair of neumans, but i can afford some decent stuff if i keep it small. I guess i also need to find a LD condensor that Fits my voice.

For preamps i was thinking getting on of those Dmp3's (or whatever that really good cheap one is, i think it gives you two channels?), and then something a little better. So i guess the budget for the preamps is undefined/flexible.

Any help would be appricated, i'm confused at what would be best for me. I was thinking i'd be so much cooler if i had a Baby bottle, so maybe we can work that in too :)
 
Man that is so much info in one post.
You can get the 44 and a preamp {or use your mixer since you already have one} Your monitors can tie to the 44's outs.
M-audio also makes good preamps.
The 44 will give you damn near 0 latency for realtime monitoring.
Mic's ? Dunno, not my specialty.
 
Sorry i don't actually have a mixing board, i rented one before.

I'm trying to prioritize. I think the best thing would be a Delta 44, some outboard pre's, the yorkville ysm1p's, and some mics.

What kind of voices does the SP C1 work on well? My voice is kinda deeper i guess, not very good, you know. More singing/rapping/spoken word. Any of those 3 or, combinations, whatever. But i mostly record instruments.

Hmmm.

It's good to know the latency will be low.

What about controlling the levels of the monitor speakers? Is there a good way to do this without a mixing board and without having to use the digital fader in the windows volume control?
 
Ambi, doesn't the 44 come with a software mixer? If so, then you could use that for controlling the monitor level. When I started doing this recording thing three years ago, everybody was talking about how you needed a mixer to record, but that was wrong. I wish I hadn't bought a mixer now - the only thing I use it for is monitoring - I go direct to disk through better preamps than my mixer has.

Hey, I've had a thought. Forget everything I just said. Wanna buy my mixer? :p

Seriously, for homerecording with a computer, if you're willing to mousemix, why go the mixer route?
 
You should not use the software mixer to control volume. Software volume controls reduce volume by chopping bits off your audio data ie reducing resolution of your audio.

A cheap mixer (eg behringer or mackie) would probably be just as bad - a lot of cheap op amps and pots in the signal path adding noise and distortion. However mixers can perform a lot of other functions besides volume control and are useful when you have more sources than inputs (eg couple of synths, rack mount effects etc). Also saves you a lot of plugging and unplugging which can get in the way of the creative process (especially if you are a non techie musician).

If quality is your main concern, then for volume control you should use a HiFi preamplifier in front of your powered monitors or a good integrated amplifier with passive monitors.
Or you could construct your own passive preamp. However you have to be wary of impedence matching issues (the output opamps of the soundcard may not be able to provide enough current resulting in reduced bass). The following stereophile article covers the issues with passive preamps quite well on pages 2,3 and offers a DIY design for a buffered passive preamp. There are many others on the web.

http://www.stereophile.com/showarchives.cgi?54

At your price point you could get the passive Yorkville monitors with something like a Rotel integrated amplifier. The rotel would also give you a headphone output. A Bryston would be better (and canadian) with balanced inputs to take advantage of the balanced outputs of the delta but I guess is out of your budget.

Alternatively you might want to investigate the omni front end for the delta 44/66. The omni looks like a simplified mixer so theoretically should sound better then a behringer mixer (less is more). It has headphone and monitor volume controls and outputs.

For those who have the cash, the Benchmark Media DAC1 sounds like a great solution. High quality, low jitter DAC with 2 headphone outputs and a volume control for the main outputs. Plus its considered 'affordable' (by pro audio standards)

http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/

Anyway enough gear lust. Hope this helps.
 
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Yea that does help a lot, thanks.
I didn't realize that controlling the volume digitally was such a big problem, i just thought it was an irritation.
I'm thinking the Omni studio looks like a good solution. Are the preamps in it any good?

Subtractor, what?
 
aaah. Hahahaha, it had been there for a few days i think too... hmm.
 
Hmm the omni studio is pretty expensive if i'm only going to use it for the monitor control knob. It has 2 preamps but i dunno how good they are. I think it's 350 Canadian. For 690 i can get a Mackie 1202.

Hmm. Double the price, but it's a mixer, with eq, and 4 better quality preamps.
 
alfalfa is right, don't use the software mixer to control monitor levels. You'll need something between your power amp/active monitors and the soundcard....either a mixer or a line level preamp.

Slackmaster 2000
 
I would go for an Integrated HiFi amplifier with the passive Yorkville Ysm-1. That would be the most cost effective, high quality solution. Look for preamplifier outputs so that you can upgrade to a better power amplifier (or powered monitors) in the future.

You can then get a good dedicated microphone preamp. The eq and preamps on cheap mixers arent worth it unless you need a lot of cheap preamps. Its all about quality versus quantity.

There are a lot of choices in the HiFi market so do your research. Rotel is a safe bet in the budget price range. Others to investigate include NAD, Marantz, Arcam. Also check out your Canadian made products.
 
Ok that sounds great. So the whole thing about the active monitors being by amped, and having amplifiers matched to the speakers doesn't really matter? It would sound as good/work as well with a seperate amplifier?
 
Theoretically you should be able to design an active speaker better than a passive one.

However in practice I dont believe its a major issue. For example most mastering studios use high end full range speakers that are passive. Abbey Road studios use B&W nautilus speakers and they are passive. Perhaps the best speaker designers and the best amplifier designers are usually not found in the same company??

Having separate components will allow you to upgrade when you have more cash, 1 part at a time (maybe add a better power amp, then a time and phase accurate speaker).
You could buy a HiFi preamp together with active monitors if you really want active speakers but that is not the best value solution given your budget.

Avoiding having a cheap mixer in the signal path will have a far more positive effect on sound quality than possible amplifier / speaker synergies.

Just make sure the integrated amp you get is powerful enough for the volumes that you will be listening at. If the amp is too weak and you turn up the volume, it will sound harsh and strained and then it will clip, destroying your tweeters. Most home recordists will not be listening at deafening volumes so it is usually not an issue but be aware of it.

A good shop will let you take home the amplifier you are thinking of buying for a weekend to try out. Or bring your speakers to their shop. Nothing beats listening with your own ears. Have fun.
Oh and dont get caught up paying a fortune for fancy speaker cables. Save it for a later upgrade if and when your setup allows you to hear the difference.
 
I really know nothing about these amps. Would i buy them at music stores or HI Fi stereo stores? What is the price range for a good one? I'm sort of stuck in a smaller area so i'm limited, but i can get to a bigger area if needed. But it increases on cost.

The yorkville actives are 740 CAD. That's 495 US. The passives are 350 CAD. That's 235 US. That only leaves 260 US for an Amplifier. Seems like it would be on the shitty side for that price.

Apparantly the Rotel 1070 is "eight and a half" the guy said on the phone, which i'm guessing is 850 Canadian. So just the amp would more than the Active speakers. Maybe i should look into a cheap passive preamp for the Actives?
 
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ambi said:
I really know nothing about these amps. Would i buy them at music stores or HI Fi stereo stores? What is the price range for a good one? I'm sort of stuck in a smaller area so i'm limited, but i can get to a bigger area if needed. But it increases on cost.
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HiFi store.

ambi said:
The yorkville actives are 740 CAD. That's 495 US. The passives are 350 CAD. That's 235 US. That only leaves 260 US for an Amplifier. Seems like it would be on the shitty side for that price.
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Yep, good amps are not cheap (thats why I said its good to have upgrade options when you have more money). How crap do you reckon the amplification components are in most budget active monitors given their price? At least HiFi gear has cost benefits due to much larger volumes compared to proaudio equipment.

ambi said:
Apparantly the Rotel 1070 is "eight and a half" the guy said on the phone, which i'm guessing is 850 Canadian. So just the amp would more than the Active speakers. Maybe i should look into a cheap passive preamp for the Actives? [/B]
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Unless you make your own passive preamp, you wont be able to buy a cheap one. Hifi preamps usually start at prices equal or greater than basic integrated amps. Thats because they are designed for quality not budget.

The Rotel 1070 is actually their top of the range integrated amp. You get definitely get more budget models eg the RA-02 or RA-01 (if you dont need the remote) that will be within your budget. Also look for discontinued models on sale (RA-971 mkII) and second hand. NAD and marantz also make amps in that price range that are decent.

On Rotel's website there is product information and a list of dealers in canada.
 
Thanks.
Yea there is a Rotel dealer near me.

www.soundhounds.com

The main page lists all of the brands they carry.
My concern is that the RA-02 is only 40 watts per channel. Pretty skimpy. I thought it was always best to have more power than the speakers are rated for, to be safe. I heard a clipping amp can blow the speakers easily. More easily than clipping speakers from a powefully amp.

It's starting to look like an audio buddy or an Aardvark Q10 would be more practical. I guess a good amp would have other uses though as well right?
 

My concern is that the RA-02 is only 40 watts per channel. Pretty skimpy. I thought it was always best to have more power than the speakers are rated for, to be safe. I heard a clipping amp can blow the speakers easily. More easily than clipping speakers from a powefully amp.
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I wrote earlier you need to test the amp to see if it is powerful enough for the volumes that you will be monitoring at. For home recording with nearfield monitoring at typical levels of about 85db 40W of rotel should be fine - but you need to try it. If you are setting up a pro studio and plan to play at 100db levels to impress deaf rock clients then it probably wont be enough.

Dont rely on manufacturers figures, I know 30W amps that are far more capable of driving speakers than so called 100W amps. There is no consistency between manufacturers in quoting power capabilities. At your budget you cant have everything, power, quality. You have to compromise and to me quality is better than super loud playback.


It's starting to look like an audio buddy or an Aardvark Q10 would be more practical. I guess a good amp would have other uses though as well right?
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Audio buddy is a microphone preamp not a hifi preamp - you cant use it as a volume control for your speakers.

The Q10 looks good but that is a totally different price range. It wont have the best mic pres, ADC/DACs, headphone and monitor stages, but is has good ones depending on your expectations / needs.

Do you want costlier higher quality specialised products or a value product that has lots of features but wont be the best at each feature? Everything is a compromise so decide what quality and features you need and what you are willing to sacrifice. Remember you usually get what you pay for. There is a reason stuff costs more - whether you need it is a different question.
 
Good point. Yea i would rather have a few good quality things than a bunch of shit, or one do it all product that doesn't do it all very well.

http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=78191

In this post you were talking about using the B&W Speakers as nearfield monitors. This intrugues me because i could use it as my stereo and my monitors. Which i think would have benifits, because i'd spend twice as much time listening to them, and get to know them better/faster.

The only reason i was thinking of the Aardvark is because it has so many things in one unit. But i really don't need 8 so so preamps and channels. I just need 2 really good ones, maybe 4. A couple really nice mics, and really nice monitors, and then i'll work from there. When you compare these things to the real world it seems outrageous (what? You payed 1000 dollars for that microphone? You could by a piece of shit car for that!), but i guess in comparision, and in the long run it is well worth the extra money. BUT i am not rich, i still have school and other things to deal with. So i can only afford a few good pieces of equipment. Now i don't mean 2000 dollar amps, and i am willing to get a 40watt Royer amp instead of a 200 watt JVC home stereo amp from future shop. That makes total sense, and i wouldn't be going very loud anyways (unless i was listening to music, but then again i want to save my hearing).


So i guess i need a new sound card with 2-4 inputs, i need at least 2 decent channels of preamps, i need a couple of mics, and this amp and speakers.

Would you recomend Shelling out a bit more for a set of B&W speakers, or something along those lines? Would a 40watt Royer amp do them justice?

Thanks a lot for your help by the way. You really seem to know what you're talking about and i apricate you taking the time to help.
 
I'm into hifi gear. I don't own any rotel, my stuff is sonic frontiers, sunfire and klipsch... But from what I know, 40 watts of rotel is should be fine for monitoring. REAL hifi gear like that, sounds alot louder at alot lower watt ratings.
But overall, the gear you're talking about costs alot more than a good pair of monitors.
 
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