Building a studio with some money to burn

[apl]

Remember that soundproofing is not at all related to the acoustics of the room.*

You could start fleshing out your equipment list, too, to sort of get an idea what to spend.

PC, $2K
Monitors, those schmantzy Events $1.5K
Sound Card, RME Fireface, $1.2K
Software and plugins, $1.5K
Mics ????


*This is 99.9% true.

 

[Goldcan]

Remember that soundproofing is not at all related to the acoustics of the room.*

You could start fleshing out your equipment list, too, to sort of get an idea what to spend.

PC, $2K
Monitors, those schmantzy Events $1.5K
Sound Card, RME Fireface, $1.2K
Software and plugins, $1.5K
Mics ????


*This is 99.9% true.

I kinda see what you're saying about the two not being related, but if I sound proof, keeping sound in and out, the "in" sound has to go somewhere, is that where the accoustics come in?

Budget Planned so far was something like this: Room $5k PC $2.5k Monitors $1.3-1.5k Guitar (and Amp) $1.5k Bass (and Amp) $1.5k Drums $1.5k Mics $3k and the rest for things I haven't learned yet (you mentioned the RME Fireface and software and plugins) as well as other things.

Some of those figures are high, I know I can get a drum kit for $500-600 plus another $500 for cymbals (hopefully), I've already got a bass, so I could skemp on that, just would like a decent amp and maybe a 5-string. And again anything I can find cheaper or used in good condition I'm gonna go for.

I'm more concerned about the mics, PC, software and mixing components, than I am anything else because I know the least about it, so I'll def take my time researching before I jump to the "best thing" out there.

 

[apl]

What happens to the in sound is what the acoustics are about. If you put 24" of fiberglass on all the walls, floor and ceiling, you'd have an anechoic chamber, completely dead because the sound is being absorbed as soon as it hits the surfaces. If you covered all the surfaces with ceramic tile, you'd have a reverb chamber, and you could clap your hands and hear it for several seconds as it would keep bouncing around. You'd like to have enough life in the room for it to enhance instruments, without having resonances that artificially color what you hear.

Consider Carvin guitars, basses, and amps.

 

[famous beagle]

What happens to the in sound is what the acoustics are about. If you put 24" of fiberglass on all the walls, floor and ceiling, you'd have an anechoic chamber, completely dead because the sound is being absorbed as soon as it hits the surfaces. If you covered all the surfaces with ceramic tile, you'd have a reverb chamber, and you could clap your hands and hear it for several seconds as it would keep bouncing around. You'd like to have enough life in the room for it to enhance instruments, without having resonances that artificially color what you hear.

Consider Carvin guitars, basses, and amps.

lol APL. Again with the Carvin endorsement! Are you sure you don't work for them?

 

[apl]

lol APL. Again with the Carvin endorsement! Are you sure you don't work for them?

I wish I did! I wouldn't call "consider" an endorsement.

 

[dwillis45]

Take a look at the Auralex site and especially the following:

http://www.acoustics101.com/

Also check out:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/

I would also break up your search process into some component parts and try posting specific question/searches in the relevant forums. Break down studio constuction into sound isolation, sound absorption (room treatment), HVAC, electrical, etc. And definately spend some time posting and searching in the Studio Construction section of this bbs. There is a wealth of info down there and a lot of experienced people.

On the sound isolation issue, if you have the money and you really want to keep the world out, build a "room-within-a-room." Float your floor with 2x4's (or larger) using U-boats or a similar product. Put in insulation and cover with a sandwich of materials. Check the net for the exact combo, but it's something like 3/4 ply/drywall or soundboard/more 3/4 ply/carpet padding/carpet. Build your walls (before carpeting!) using the floated floor to anchor wall studs. Use a staggered stud design and fill with vinyl sheetblock, insulation, etc. Then attach soundboard (Homosote) and drywall using special panel hangers that isolate the wall material from the studs. While you're at it, you'll have to wire the room and figure out a good system of HVAC wich does not produce the very sounds you are trying to isolate. And, I almost forgot, you'll need a ceiling that sits atop your wall studs. The design of the ceiling is similar to the walls and it's spaced away from you existing ceiling.

Now, building a room-within-a-room means some loss of space. You will probably loose 6-12" all the way around. It's also not cheap because you are using some high ticket items like the sheetblock an a lot of lumber.

 

[Goldcan]

Thanks for your help.

Why do you recommend Carvin, Apl? Not knowing how they play, the gear though is priced about what I'd planned on spending for my equipment, figure I'm buying really for me since if someone comes over to record they can bring their own shit if they don't like mine.

I think I might float the floor totally only because if I floated the drums and the amps, most of the floor would be covered anyway. I don't think I'll float the walls only because of the brick and the loss of space.

HVAC I was planning, and don't smack me, just a combo heating/air unit and mount it to through the wall, using it when recording or mixing wasn't going on, and possibly have a box to soundproof it even though it was off, in case anything rattles on it. My heat pump struggles enough without me adding another room to the list.

As for electrical I've seen the area on John Sayers site (on there just a little less than I'm here, feel more at home here though) and haven't read anything on it because I wanted to figure out layout of the room and exactly how I wanted to build the walls and such, then figure out electrical and then go back and mesh the two together.

Right now I'll spend some time on Accoustics101.com and get what I can from that.

Thanks again guys.

 

[apl]

Why do you recommend Carvin, Apl?

They make some of very fine guitars and amps, but they get little respect because they don't sell through stores; you have to buy directly from them. There's quite a savings between you and the manufacturer that way. Even if they were priced for retail in stores, (add about 50%), I think they're good enough to compete. Here's a thread I started recently. If you click the link in the first post, it'll lead you to some video where Joe Walsh complains that he can't get Gibson to build him a guitar like that.

I think I might float the floor totally only because if I floated the drums and the amps, most of the floor would be covered anyway. I don't think I'll float the walls only because of the brick and the loss of space.

IMHO, it's not necessary to float the floor. Since the sound waves push on it in the normal (perpendicular) direction, sound will go into the dirt underneath the slab. I think most of your sound will escape or enter through other paths. One way to decouple the floor is to saw around it near the walls, and then fill the cut with some goop that they make especially for that. But I think that wouldn't be necessary either.

HVAC I was planning, and don't smack me, just a combo heating/air unit and mount it to through the wall...

If you go the one room approach, one of the quietest ways to heat it would also be very effecient- the unvented gas fireplace. It would look cool, too.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Budget Planned so far was something like this: Room $5k PC $2.5k Monitors $1.3-1.5k Guitar (and Amp) $1.5k Bass (and Amp) $1.5k Drums $1.5k Mics $3k and the rest for things I haven't learned yet (you mentioned the RME Fireface and software and plugins) as well as other things.

Caveat: most of this assumes you are doing a partially commercial venture.

Dude....

You only have 20k to spend and you're wasting 4500 bucks on drums/guitar/bass? I thought you wanted to build a studio.

3k in mics is downright skimpy. Heck, a good vocal mic starts around 1000 bucks. I could see maybe 4k in mics if you bought used and spent a few months hunting.

What about preamps or a mixer? Trust me, Mackie is *NOT* the way you want to go in the long run. Decent pre's usually run at least 500/channel--and count on about 16 channels.

What about AD/DA converters? The RME is pretty decent, but you are going to want to be able to run at LEAST 16 simultaneous inputs without a hitch. Keep in mind that these will determine the quality of audio possibly more than anything else hardware...

Don't forget software! Cubase SX is 600 bucks, as are most of the "pro" PC DAW programs. Also, better budget in some plugins, because if you aren't running at least Waves level plugins your audio is going to be compromised, personally on the PC platform I recommend getting 2-3 UAD-1 cards with all the plugs and at least one TC Powercore.

Cabling and patchbays alone will probably set you back 2000 bucks. You will want this set as efficiently as possible so you can work quickly and hassle free without patching and repatching.

Don't forget about electricity and wiring, which you will want as clean as possible with power conditioners and line protectors on all the critical gear, as well as clean power to the tracking room so amps don't buzz and hum like mad bastards....

Don't forget about the tons of knicknacks you need to run a studio like splitters, direct boxes, drum tuners, guitar tuners, instrument stands, microphone stands (those add up if you get 12-15 of 'em), and so forth.

Trust me, do yourself a favor and scratch the drums, guitar and bass stuff off your list. Focus on building a great *STUDIO* first and then add in the extras like instruments. Later down the line don't forget to add a few keyboards and samplers to your gear list.

You will thank me in the long and short run.

 

[Goldcan]

If you go the one room approach, one of the quietest ways to heat it would also be very effecient- the unvented gas fireplace. It would look cool, too.

Well I was thinking of the Heating/Air combo unit kinda like this
http://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/AJES06LSA.html

That way I can keep the room at a constant temp and now have to worry about it getting really hot during the summer or cold during the winter.

Cloneboy, I see where you're coming from, and understand it perfectly. But for right now, until I learn more, do more, see more, I have no plans on doing a commercial venture, it would be nice, but not yet. And yes I want the best quality sound I can get but what good is an awesome room with awesome recording gear and nothing to use it with? Am I supposed to "build it and they will come"?

"That's awesome, glad you guys could come, now just set up your gear and give me a couple months while I learn all this awesome gear I bought because I haven't had any instruments in here to actually record with so I have no idea what the fuck I'm doing. Beers in the fridge up stairs."

Maybe I have to buy some "not pro studio quality" things to get up and running, but I see it a little easier to have something and when it's time to upgrade, sell it and use that money and some more and get a better piece of gear. Yeah I pay more, but it's better to have some of everything than a lot of nothing.

I know I could probably blow 20 grand on a mixer right now. Be sweet to sit it on my coffee table and with beer in hand stare off into space with a dreamy smile thinking "Man, I'm sure glad I spent all that money on this thing, and in 10 years I'll have enough saved up again to maybe build half a studio around it and then maybe a desk to sit it on and I can sit out in my half studio and wonder what it'll be like 10 years from then when I'll be able to have the other half built."

And maybe I have high dreams with shit for money, and maybe I have no real concept of what things will cost, but that's why I'm here in the "NEWBIE" section of the BBS.

I appreciate your help, and I'm sorry if you weren't planning on attacking me, but it came off like that. I also realize that I don't want to piss people off because who knows how handy they'll become in the future, but I also believe that if you're going to be an asshole you better be an asshole that's willing to babystep me through this whole thing, if you can't be that, then chose your words more carefully and if you're tired of seeing all these stupid Newbies asking stupid questions, and not "knowing how much this stuff costs" then don't read the posts and sure as hell don't reply to them, find Proaudio.com and see if they have a forum there.

And BTW I do plan on spending several several months locating and purchasing gear and material and the like, instant gratification is for schmucks who deserve to be taken to the cleaners. And used gear, as long as it works is more welcome than brand new gear.

Oh, APL, I checked out Carvin, I'm waiting on the DVD to get here. Do you know of any Carvin shops where you can play the instruments/use the gear before you buy? I know you said it's factory direct but LL Bean was/is factory direct but they have one store in Newport (I think it was) Maine, since it was the birthplace of the company. Probably not a good comparison, clothing/camping supplies and music gear, but you get the point.

 

[apl]

Oh, APL, I checked out Carvin, I'm waiting on the DVD to get here. Do you know of any Carvin shops where you can play the instruments/use the gear before you buy? I know you said it's factory direct but LL Bean was/is factory direct but they have one store in Newport (I think it was) Maine, since it was the birthplace of the company. Probably not a good comparison, clothing/camping supplies and music gear, but you get the point.

Carvin has four stores. If you hang out on their bbs, you'll see lots of pix of people's guitars, and you may be able to set up meeting someone in your area to try theirs. The bbs is worth checking out, since the guitars are made to order and there are so many options. One time I figured there was almost 300 different ways to configure just the neck, and they've added options since then.

 

[Goldcan]

Apl

When it comes to Carvin's pro audio gear have you heard anything about it? Is there a site or place to check out comparisons? It's kinda hard to buy direct because you don't get the comparisons by shoppers (and "shoppers") who write reviews.

Just wondering, thanks.

 

[apl]

Apl

When it comes to Carvin's pro audio gear have you heard anything about it? Is there a site or place to check out comparisons? It's kinda hard to buy direct because you don't get the comparisons by shoppers (and "shoppers") who write reviews.

Just wondering, thanks.

I've got a small powered mixer, and it's been fine. The infrequent comments I catch is that their pro audio stuff is very rugged, and pretty good sounding. Their bbs has a pro audio forum as well as the guitar forum.

 

[Goldcan]

I've got a small powered mixer, and it's been fine. The infrequent comments I catch is that their pro audio stuff is very rugged, and pretty good sounding. Their bbs has a pro audio forum as well as the guitar forum.

Cool, I'm just a little weary of company's forums though, why would you be a member of their forum if you didn't like the product? Like here where you get an even mix of things, I"ll check it out though. I've found a couple forums talking about them, seems pretty damn good so far.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Cloneboy, I see where you're coming from, and understand it perfectly. But for right now, until I learn more, do more, see more, I have no plans on doing a commercial venture, it would be nice, but not yet. And yes I want the best quality sound I can get but what good is an awesome room with awesome recording gear and nothing to use it with? Am I supposed to "build it and they will come"?

Actually you build it, advertise, do good work, and they will come.

I understand your perspective, my input was if you were doing primarily a commercial venture.

However, make a *complete* inventory list before moving ahead. You'd be surprised how much cabling and knick-knacks will run you.

Pick up a few more mics than you'd think as well. You can never have too many mic options, and most good mics are under 500 bucks.

 

[Goldcan]

Actually you build it, advertise, do good work, and they will come.

I understand your perspective, my input was if you were doing primarily a commercial venture.

However, make a *complete* inventory list before moving ahead. You'd be surprised how much cabling and knick-knacks will run you.

Pick up a few more mics than you'd think as well. You can never have too many mic options, and most good mics are under 500 bucks.

Rock on. The complete inventory is what I'm trying to do now, but I"m having to do a lot of learning before I can solidify it. I know I want to spend at least a grand on a vocal mic. I'll want atleast two overhead condinser mics so that's another grand, and from what I've been reading Shure puts out the most commonly used "amp mics/vocal mics/drum mics" so I figured another grand on those. If I'm wrong in this thinking steer me, I"ve seen a few lists, and I might be better of spending 4 grand or so on mics, but if I can bargain hunt I will.

Like I said before, before any equipment is bought I'm going to have the room set up, meaning electrical, the works, the good thing is I can do most of, if not all of this myself, and get the materials for little over cost (good to be in my line of work and know who I know =)) so that's kinda why I figured low on the building aspect of it.

I'm trying to do this step by step and make sure I know why I need something before just going out and grabbing it and not knowing why I have it.

Mainly if I fuck this up my wife will rag me for 20 years. "Remember that time you tried to set up a studio in the house, remember that? Should have bought a truck instead, like I said."