Building a standalone quiet room

J

james_b

New member
Hi Forum, newbie here.

I want to be able to play piano and sing from home, but live in an appartment. The neighbours are a bit fussy. I made a start on building a quiet room and am going to go back to it now that summer is over.

I have quite a bit of space. I have started with a frame built out of fence posts. My next step is to build a sound resistant floor to put the piano on. I'm thinking of using conical metal spikes onto rubber tiles. Then around the frame I would put an inner and outer layer.

The goal isn't to silence the room for recording, but just to allow me to make noise without bothering the neighbours too much. I have an upright piano and would be singing with maybe some backing tracks (drums, bass - but they can play into headphones). I realise total sound capture isn't realistic, but I can't be belting out tunes without getting a knock at the door :) I studied some acoustics at uni so have some understanding of the principles involved.

If anyone has advice on building a standalone unit such as this (rather than converting a pre-existing room), I would really welcome advice on materials or theory to do a good job first time. The budget isn't limitless but I don't mind paying a few hundred. It will be about 2x3x3 metres.

Thanks in advance - and photos to follow once it's complete!

Best wishes

James
 
A few hundred wouldnt cover it James. You would need to build a fully insulated box to keep sound in or out. The insulation may cost more than a few hundred.
 
Orson said:
A few hundred wouldnt cover it James. You would need to build a fully insulated box to keep sound in or out. The insulation may cost more than a few hundred.
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Thanks - what material would you suggest for the insulation? I thought it might be possible to get a load of clothes and cut them up, but perhaps that is just wishful thinking.
 
james_b said:
Thanks - what material would you suggest for the insulation? I thought it might be possible to get a load of clothes and cut them up, but perhaps that is just wishful thinking.
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You could but it would be a lot of old clothes.

To isolate your noise you need the floor, ceiling and all walls and your door completely insulated. So need a false floor and ceiling as well as 4 walls. Acoustic Rockwool still works out the best and cheapest if you have to purchase.
 
Are you doing this in the basement? IF not, then consider that the load you are putting on the floor joists from this may exceed their capacity. Get yourself an electronic keyboard.
 
james_b said:
but live in an appartment. The neighbours are a bit fussy.

If anyone has advice on building a standalone unit such as this (rather than converting a pre-existing room), I would really welcome advice on materials or theory to do a good job first time. The budget isn't limitless but I don't mind paying a few hundred. It will be about 2x3x3 metres.
Click to expand...
You build a room within a room with all the walls isolated from each other - A cement slab - covered in rubber with a floor floating above that. A few hundred is not going to get. you there. A better route would be to get a Weighted Keyboard Controller - and use soft synths/pianos to get your sound - something like this would work well - you could buy used to save some money.
 
Yes I see that even normal rockwooll at 10 euros a square metre would cost about 600 euros. I'm guessing acoustic is about double that, though I can't find any prices online.

I will have to ponder it. My DIY store does pay in installments, so if they can get it for me I could pay over six months. Or go around pilfering clothes! (not)
 
I think your university acoustics course was thin in the extreme. You've made all sorts of assumptions and some ideas are a bit strange. Really the advice to buy a keyboard is by far the best one. Being in a 6 ft by 9ft box with a piano is going to be horrible to work in. AT uni they probably talked about mass - and how sound travels through a medium and you can attenuate it, reflect it, absorb it and diffuse it. They also told you bass is very difficult to control and treble much easier. They may have talked about structure born transmission and how even harder this is to control. Your need is for something that does all these things - so a support for the piano by adding a new floor floating on neoprene helps structural transmission. Mass in the walls and insulation handle transmission. How much absorption/isolation is down to the thickness of the hard stuff and the light stuff in the cavities - both do a similar, but different job. "acoustic" versions of things like rockwool are always more expensive but lots of these products are pointed at meeting rooms and not music. Two lots of cheaper products are often better.

Lowering the level of voice is far easier than lower the piano - hence why we're saying use a keyboard if money is tight. Even worse - your small room doesn't;t have much oxygen in it, so how will you get smelly air out and fresh air in, without totally messing up the isolation?

I think you need a rethink - because your expenditure on materials will be, even for a small room - quite high.
 
Yes it's a good point regarding the keyboard versus piano. I have been thinking about that. And then it is just the voice issue. The piano is rented so I could return it no problem and get a keyboard. Better for production as well.

I hadn't thought about ventilation, but I guess this is something that recording studios and so on have to contend with. I use a room near me with AC but have never looked to see how they do that.

I'll have a look at examples of ventilation in recording studios. I do have a small room I could use, but it's by the front door so would probably be worse than in the centre of the appartment.
 
Papanate said:
You build a room within a room with all the walls isolated from each other - A cement slab - covered in rubber with a floor floating above that. A few hundred is not going to get. you there. A better route would be to get a Weighted Keyboard Controller - and use soft synths/pianos to get your sound - something like this would work well - you could buy used to save some money.
Click to expand...
that's a nice unit. presumably plugs into an amp with speakers / headphones
 
rob aylestone said:
I think your university acoustics course was thin in the extreme. You've made all sorts of assumptions and some ideas are a bit strange. Really the advice to buy a keyboard is by far the best one. Being in a 6 ft by 9ft box with a piano is going to be horrible to work in. AT uni they probably talked about mass - and how sound travels through a medium and you can attenuate it, reflect it, absorb it and diffuse it. They also told you bass is very difficult to control and treble much easier. They may have talked about structure born transmission and how even harder this is to control. Your need is for something that does all these things - so a support for the piano by adding a new floor floating on neoprene helps structural transmission. Mass in the walls and insulation handle transmission. How much absorption/isolation is down to the thickness of the hard stuff and the light stuff in the cavities - both do a similar, but different job. "acoustic" versions of things like rockwool are always more expensive but lots of these products are pointed at meeting rooms and not music. Two lots of cheaper products are often better.

Lowering the level of voice is far easier than lower the piano - hence why we're saying use a keyboard if money is tight. Even worse - your small room doesn't;t have much oxygen in it, so how will you get smelly air out and fresh air in, without totally messing up the isolation?

I think you need a rethink - because your expenditure on materials will be, even for a small room - quite high.
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Hi so assuming I switch the piano for a synth, what would I be looking at to lower the voice sound? Same approach but different materials? Yes you're correct about my studies; I studied fundamental acoustics (complex numbers and so on) but only one class on practical room design. Rest of the time was on electronics or programming!
 
It will be easier overall to reduce the effect and volume of your voice only. I assume you do not use a PA? So....let's start again. Do you think just your normal singing volume will bother your neighbors.....as your room is now? Maybe you could give it a test run. Does your TV volume or your stereo volume bother them? The piano was certainly loud and penetrating walls......and it's quite possible that without it......your neighbors might not object. If they're ok with it....you're done.

Mick
 
With just a voice - then some room treatment to soak up a bit of the top - even try some of the old fall back of duvets on mic stands - could work enough to allow you to sing? Maybe not at 1am, but can you ask the neighbours for their help?
 
Mickster said:
It will be easier overall to reduce the effect and volume of your voice only. I assume you do not use a PA? So....let's start again. Do you think just your normal singing volume will bother your neighbors.....as your room is now? Maybe you could give it a test run. Does your TV volume or your stereo volume bother them? The piano was certainly loud and penetrating walls......and it's quite possible that without it......your neighbors might not object. If they're ok with it....you're done.

Mick
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No PA. It's really actually singing practice I need to do at home, and then off to the practice rooms to really belt it out. The problem at home is that the flat is quite echoey and not very well sealed. I will put up some materials to reduce the echo. I already have a 2x2x3 m frame and will put up some materials around such as duvets and curtains. I have abandoned the idea of a fully sealed unit. I'm pretty technical and could do it but the cost is beyond what I'm willing to part with! Better left to the experts.
 
rob aylestone said:
With just a voice - then some room treatment to soak up a bit of the top - even try some of the old fall back of duvets on mic stands - could work enough to allow you to sing? Maybe not at 1am, but can you ask the neighbours for their help?
Click to expand...
Yes I'm going to move forward with the 2x2x3 m frame but not aim for isolation. Rather just some cheap materials on the sides and some sort of floor so I can practice singing from home. It's also a self-concsciousness thing; not wanting people to hear your terrible noises. I've been looking into the controller you suggested. I really like it though the second hand price isn't much less than brand new. It will pay for itself within 10 months once the piano goes back. Pianos and appartments don't mix well! Thanks for the advice, and saving me going on an expensive wild goose chase; I had high hopes for a home studio but having looked into it further the level of effort and expense involved is over-kill for what I'm trying to do.
 
james_b said:
No PA. It's really actually singing practice I need to do at home, and then off to the practice rooms to really belt it out. The problem at home is that the flat is quite echoey and not very well sealed. I will put up some materials to reduce the echo. I already have a 2x2x3 m frame and will put up some materials around such as duvets and curtains. I have abandoned the idea of a fully sealed unit. I'm pretty technical and could do it but the cost is beyond what I'm willing to part with! Better left to the expert.
Click to expand...

If you can get lots of 'cheap' heavy duvets, then great that will certainly defeat a lot of sound except for base/low sounds like drums. Get to know someone in hotels where they get rid of their old bedding periodically. The light ones are next to useless for sound.

It's a makeshift idea but could suit. But purchasing duvets could cost more than Rockwool.

You can get a 'sound blanket' set up. You see these on Youtube. I have no idea of cost.
 
Orson said:
If you can get lots of 'cheap' heavy duvets, then great that will certainly defeat a lot of sound except for base/low sounds like drums. Get to know someone in hotels where they get rid of their old bedding periodically. The light ones are next to useless for sound.

It's a makeshift idea but could suit. But purchasing duvets could cost more than Rockwool.

You can get a 'sound blanket' set up. You see these on Youtube. I have no idea of cost.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the tip. Yes stuff like waste material can be hard to come by. I'll have a think about it!
 
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