Building a pro studio on an amateur budget - triple leaf and other fun

I think everyone who ever worked in IT must have some kind of 'they unplugged the fibre router to plug in a vacuum' story. Yours gets extra points for the bureaucratic-lack-of-actual-apology and brazenly-stupid-explanation.

frederic said:
If you go for three cans, shipping is free !


Check this out... I have a T1 to my server... or did... went down today at 10am give or take. I called my ISP, they called the LEC, and it appears the LEC "unplugged it because they didn't know what it was".

How's that for brilliance?
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For any "business" network line, like a T1, T3, OC12, etc, you have a series of connections like so:

Internet --> LEC --> ISP --> LEC --> V35 modem --> router --> my network
dumbasses -------------------/

While this outage is most annoying, I am going to like the full monthly refund of charges since this is business class services, and it won't be up within 24 hours after I reported it. See, within 3 seconds of it going down, my router paged me to notify me, and I immediately dialed the ISP to let them know, to start the clock.

My LEC (local phone exchange) has the "slash" under them. They were the goofballs this time. Sad thing too, up until today, I had 364 days, 11 hours, 47 minutes, and 53 seconds of dead nuts reliable, uptime.
 
Yay! More Brits!

I'm in the u.k. too (England to be exact) and it is great to see another Brit on the board! It seems like about the second time ever! :)

I've also just realised the extent to which this stuff is all really complicated and have massively simplified my own plans. This will make them much easier to build but sadly means no floating ceilings, and the ceiling will be the big problem for me in terms of sound leakage I suspect.

I'm really curious to hear how you get on especially as you are in a similar crazy situation of having intimate neighbours. I'm in a terraced house that leaks sound soooooo badly, that you can hear a parrot singing next door as if he is in the same room as you. It's amazing how bad structural transmission can be too, I can hear things when I am in the cellar even!

I hope your situation will be a little better but sharing a chimney with your neighbours is not good news!

Really looking forward to hearing how it all turns out!

love

Freya
 
Also will be interested to hear where you source your building supplies from. I've found there are a few places in the u.k. that manufacture rubber and have drop in trade counters but it seems hard to find places generally.
 
Yeh, all of this 'rock' nonsense gets me confused ;p

I'm in a slightly more fortunate situation than you because the property is in a commercial area and rent is cheap (North Liverpool.. say no more), so people will put up with more noise than an expensive terraced house in a nice area.

As for materials, there's nothing that I've found too hard to source, but most of the more difficult items (such as custom glass) I've found through friend-of-a-friend-who-knows-some-guy. Where in sunny(!) old England are you exactly?

I will probably never have time to do this again so I figure I might as well be ambitious about it and go for something special.

I'll happily put you onto suppliers if needs be. Neoprene rubber is the only thing proving a bit awkward but I'll probably just go mail-order or scour through the classifieds (www.loot.co.uk is a goldmine for stuff noone else would ever use.. a friend built a less professional studio for next to nothing, and it still does the job.. best find was a free pair of matching PVC/double glazed patio doors).

Rich

Freya said:
I'm in the u.k. too (England to be exact) and it is great to see another Brit on the board! It seems like about the second time ever! :)

I've also just realised the extent to which this stuff is all really complicated and have massively simplified my own plans. This will make them much easier to build but sadly means no floating ceilings, and the ceiling will be the big problem for me in terms of sound leakage I suspect.

I'm really curious to hear how you get on especially as you are in a similar crazy situation of having intimate neighbours. I'm in a terraced house that leaks sound soooooo badly, that you can hear a parrot singing next door as if he is in the same room as you. It's amazing how bad structural transmission can be too, I can hear things when I am in the cellar even!

I hope your situation will be a little better but sharing a chimney with your neighbours is not good news!

Really looking forward to hearing how it all turns out!

love

Freya
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conan said:
Yeh, all of this 'rock' nonsense gets me confused ;p

I'm in a slightly more fortunate situation than you because the property is in a commercial area and rent is cheap (North Liverpool.. say no more), so people will put up with more noise than an expensive terraced house in a nice area.
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I'm in the opposite of an expensive terraced house in a nice area! ;) The neighbour tends to play UB40 very loud. I'm more worried about privacy than offending the neighbours although I would like to be able to work late at night too! :)

As for materials, there's nothing that I've found too hard to source, but most of the more difficult items (such as custom glass) I've found through friend-of-a-friend-who-knows-some-guy. Where in sunny(!) old England are you exactly?
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West Yorkshire! Have you found a supplier for RW3 Rockwool other than studio spares?

I will probably never have time to do this again so I figure I might as well be ambitious about it and go for something special.

I'll happily put you onto suppliers if needs be. Neoprene rubber is the only thing proving a bit awkward but I'll probably just go mail-order or scour through the classifieds (www.loot.co.uk is a goldmine for stuff noone else would ever use.. a friend built a less professional studio for next to nothing, and it still does the job.. best find was a free pair of matching PVC/double glazed patio doors).

Rich
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What did your friend have in the way of soundproofing? I'll be happy if I can just cut the sound down a lot! :)

Heres are some rubber places I found on the web:

http://www.rubberlast.com/products/

http://www.atlanticrubber.co.uk/sheetrubber.htm

I expect there must be someone closer to you but I don't know.

Apparently 1/2" EPDM rubber might be better for a lot of applications as it lasts for 25years instead of 10 according to this thread:

http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=135207

EPDM is used in pond liner which you might be able to find at a garden centre?

love

Freya
 
Doesn't B&Q sell Rockwool? I was planning on using the solid fireproof insulation blocks they sell to make things easier to handle.

My friend is a few offices down from my current studio, where we (literally) pay extortionate rent in return for a license to make as much noise as we want. All he did was partition off the corner with drywall and a dodgy sliding patio door, but it does a surprisingly good job of keeping noise at bay. It gives me some hope that putting some work into a much better attempt at soundproofing won't be in vain!

I found it hard to get hold of pond liner as thick as 1mm, never mind 1/2"! I'll investigate those rubber suppliers (the neighbours will be questioning my constant telephone calls about extra strong and bouncy rubber supplies) - cheers!

Freya said:
I'm in the opposite of an expensive terraced house in a nice area! ;) The neighbour tends to play UB40 very loud. I'm more worried about privacy than offending the neighbours although I would like to be able to work late at night too! :)



West Yorkshire! Have you found a supplier for RW3 Rockwool other than studio spares?



What did your friend have in the way of soundproofing? I'll be happy if I can just cut the sound down a lot! :)

Heres are some rubber places I found on the web:

http://www.rubberlast.com/products/

http://www.atlanticrubber.co.uk/sheetrubber.htm

I expect there must be someone closer to you but I don't know.

Apparently 1/2" EPDM rubber might be better for a lot of applications as it lasts for 25years instead of 10 according to this thread:

http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=135207

EPDM is used in pond liner which you might be able to find at a garden centre?

love

Freya
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conan said:
Doesn't B&Q sell Rockwool? I was planning on using the solid fireproof insulation blocks they sell to make things easier to handle.
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I'm not sure, they might only sell the fluffy stuff, and not the slabs.
I'll have to make it down there and see in person what they have.

My friend is a few offices down from my current studio, where we (literally) pay extortionate rent in return for a license to make as much noise as we want. All he did was partition off the corner with drywall and a dodgy sliding patio door, but it does a surprisingly good job of keeping noise at bay. It gives me some hope that putting some work into a much better attempt at soundproofing won't be in vain!
Click to expand...

He must at least have some insulation in the partition?

Maybe this is all I will need to do too! :)

I found it hard to get hold of pond liner as thick as 1mm, never mind 1/2"! I'll investigate those rubber suppliers (the neighbours will be questioning my constant telephone calls about extra strong and bouncy rubber supplies) - cheers!
Click to expand...

At least it isn't latex, that always seems to get the inuendo's going! ;)

love

Freya
 
One possible source -

http://www.kellysearch.com/cn-product-79649.html

As to other building supplies in the UK - have either of you contacted Paul Woodlock? He's a member of John Sayers' site as well as studiotips.com, Recording.org; on studiotips he has a BOOK that's evolved on his studio project, and has apparently found better prices than some I've seen for the UK... Steve
 
Man, I love you!! I have to go to Taiwan for a few days soon and Hsin Tai rubber is really close to where I'll be. Rock on..

BTW, can anyone help me with my glass conundrum (control room window thread)? I'm really desperate to order the stuff soon but don't want to end up with something I have to throw away then wait for new panes to be made..

knightfly said:
One possible source -

http://www.kellysearch.com/cn-product-79649.html

As to other building supplies in the UK - have either of you contacted Paul Woodlock? He's a member of John Sayers' site as well as studiotips.com, Recording.org; on studiotips he has a BOOK that's evolved on his studio project, and has apparently found better prices than some I've seen for the UK... Steve
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Have you a source for Laminated Glass? This seems to be the product of choice for studios. Probably quite a bit more expensive, as it is TWO glass panes, with a clear resiliant layer laminated in between them. It comes in 1/4" and 3/8", and I suppose you might even find 1/2". This is a safety feature also, as it is almost impossible to dislodge fragments in case of accidental fracture. But I believe its Transmission Loss characteristics are the
subject of interest in studio use.
fitZ :)
 
I'm going to contact the manufacturer again in the morning and see if they can make the stuff. I'll let you know how I get on, but FYI their number is: +44 (0)151 228 2696. I found them through a friend who is a double glazing manufacturer and uses them for their glass supplies - they gave me a VERY good price on two sheets of standard thick toughened glass.

fitZ2 said:
Have you a source for Laminated Glass? This seems to be the product of choice for studios. Probably quite a bit more expensive, as it is TWO glass panes, with a clear resiliant layer laminated in between them. It comes in 1/4" and 3/8", and I suppose you might even find 1/2". This is a safety feature also, as it is almost impossible to dislodge fragments in case of accidental fracture. But I believe its Transmission Loss characteristics are the
subject of interest in studio use.
fitZ :)
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Studio building plan update

OK folks.. I start ripping out and building the first studio tomorrow so I would appreciate some feedback on the new-improved construction plan. (A detailed description of the room and floorplan as it stands can be found earlier in this thread).

The SAE site at http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/pages/Walls.htm suggests an 'inside out' construction for an isolated double wall construction, which I would like to use. Bearing in mind that sound isolation (particularly at low frequencies - I make dance music) is a priority over space, will the isolation be as good using this method as the 'normal' method?

Also, the existing floor is a load of rather rickety softwood floorboards nailed into the joists. As I am building a floating floor on top and there is a ceiling underneath, I'm a bit confused trying to work out what will give me a 3-leaf system and good low frequency isolation. Should I replace the floorboards with sheets of plywood/chipboard before building the floating floor? Should I rip out the floorboards and build the floating floor directly onto the joists isolated with neoprene strips?
 
OK folks.. I start ripping out and building the first studio tomorrow so I would appreciate some feedback on the new-improved construction plan. (A detailed description of the room and floorplan as it stands can be found earlier in this thread).
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Before your structural analysis is completed :eek: Has the structural engineer seen the new plans or done his inspection yet?
Also, the existing floor is a load of rather rickety softwood floorboards nailed into the joists. As I am building a floating floor on top and there is a ceiling underneath,
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My exact point.

Should I rip out the floorboards and build the floating floor directly onto the joists isolated with neoprene strips?
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Personally, I wouldn't rip out ANYTHING untill a structural engineer had ascertained these joists, as well as the walls they rest on will support the additional weight you will be adding. Frankly, I don't think anyone here with a ounce of experience in these matters would place themself in a position to suggest anything in regards to building under these circumstances, as the consequence of underestimating the capacity of this existing structure to support this additional load COULD be disasterous. But thats my opinion. Hope it works out for you.
fitZ
 
Don't panic - nothing is going in there until I get the all-clear. I need to know if what I suggested is the correct method from a sound isolation point-of-view so that I don't end up having to call the engineer back to say 'whoops, I'm actually going to do THIS..' There's plenty of office space that needs sorting to keep me busy for the time being. In the event that there is a serious problem that can be fixed then I will have someone experienced come in and sort it out - I don't think it's fair to put something like that on the heads of people who are advising out of the kindness of their hearts.

fitZ2 said:
Before your structural analysis is completed :eek: Has the structural engineer seen the new plans or done his inspection yet?

My exact point.


Personally, I wouldn't rip out ANYTHING untill a structural engineer had ascertained these joists, as well as the walls they rest on will support the additional weight you will be adding. Frankly, I don't think anyone here with a ounce of experience in these matters would place themself in a position to suggest anything in regards to building under these circumstances, as the consequence of underestimating the capacity of this existing structure to support this additional load COULD be disasterous. But thats my opinion. Hope it works out for you.
fitZ
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Engineer's all-clear!

We found another structural engineer who happened to be working near the office so he came over this morning to have a look. He's dealt with studio construction before and said that the building we're in is registered as a commercial building, which apparently requires floors to have a load-bearing capacity five times that of a residential building. He said based on me giving him a proposed floor plan and cross-section there's no point even getting a full report done unless we want to check the quality of construction. We're getting his company to produce a complete structural report anyway for insurance purposes, but he said he'd feel comfortable about us starting work as long as a few basic things are checked out.
 
I need to know if what I suggested is the correct method from a sound isolation point-of-view so that I don't end up having to call the engineer back to say 'whoops, I'm actually going to do THIS..'
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Makes sense. As to the existing floorboards. First off my disclaimer. I am no EXPERT, and maybe Rod will pop back in here with a real experienced answer. But here is my OPINION :p

What is the ceiling below made of? Lath and plaster I bet, if it is as old as you say, but then again maybe it has been remodeled in the past with sheetrock. Who knows. Point being, you can't do anything to it, right. So from the back of the existing ceiling upward is all you have to work with. In that case, I see three possibilitys.
One, you look at this like a two leaf system, where the existing ceiling is the first leaf, and your floating floor is the second leaf. In that case, I would tear off the existing floor boards, as they may have the opportunity to rattle
during an important recording session :rolleyes: :p But now you have to work on exposed joists. Maybe lay down a panel or two temporarily to do the next step, which is to add MASS to the existing leaf. By this, I mean line the cavities(very carefully :D ) with two layers of 5/8" drywall, but from what I understand, they need to be caulked, then CLEATED into place. This keeps each layer acting independently with the vibrations. Then fill the cavities with
probably rockwool, or fiberglass insulation. But again, this adds an extreme amount of weight itself to the joist AND ceiling below, apart from your floating rooms, and needs to be part of your engineers calculations. But mass is weight, and I don't see any way around it to increase this leafs mass for maximum isolation between floors.
Now for the tough part. And I would think about this extensivly as there are many details to consider such as the gaps between floating floors at the thresholds of doors, flanking paths from room to room via the joist cavities, electrical etc to the ceiling below, and many others I do not have time to think of at this point. Now is the time(once your structural engineer gives an ok) to PLAN these floating floors EXACTLY and PRECISELY, according to the existing joist layout. I would draw a plan of these joists first, to see how they line up with the new plan. This will tell you how to detail the points of connection between the existing joists, the Neoprene pads, and the NEW floating floor framing. BTW, what nominal size lumber are you using for this new frame? You must tell the engineer every detail ......you know. Now, about these connection points. I am sure, that once you overlay your new plan over the existing joist plan, you will see disparity between some things, such as the perimeter of the new floor lining up with a CAVITY parallel with the joist, INSTEAD of right above the joist. That means, the linear length of this NEW rim joist, would support the weight of the wall above, BUT now must transfer this weight to the NEXT closest existing joist below, which also must have a Neoprene pad within the context of this connection. Get my drift? Therefore, with these sort of offsets all over the place, it might behoove you to actually lay a subfloor(adding a leaf but we will fix that) on top of the existing joists, although the point loads STILL have to line up with the existing joists, OR you must but in blocking in the cavities where required to transfer weight to the joists, at locations that don't line up with the joists.
Hence PLANNING to the hilt. If you lay a 3/4" OSB subfloor, this will provide a much more convienient way to LAYOUT your new floors. However, since this is another leaf, you now have to drill MANY 5" or 6" venting holes at the cavity locations, although you would have the new layout and the support points chalked on this deck, which would allow easy placement for these holes. Then the construction of the new floor becomes easier too, as falling through the existing ceiling is NOT an option ;) :D

#2. Although the best bang for the buck isolation is M A M, 2 leaf systems with one leaf decoupled from the other, from what I have read, there are times when this is either not possible, or financially feasable. In these cases, containment by adding even more mass to a third leaf becomes the meathod of choice. Again, I am no EXPERT, but even Steve has mentioned this before.
In this case, I would forgo the layers of sheetrock INBETWEEN the existing joists, and lay down a multilayer subfloor right on top of the joists. Maybe a sandwich of OSB,drywall,OSB, or a layer of OSB, a special decoupling layer that are manufactured by a few different companys, and another layer of OSB. I would post a link, but I am on my wifes computer as mine is fried at the moment and I don't have access to my library. :rolleyes: :( Point being, this type of subfloor would be a LEAF inbetween the ceiling below and your floating floor above, and actually becomes a MASSIVE layer to overcome what you loose by adding a third leaf. Whether or not the joists can handle this extra load is another animal altogether. Again though, layout for the new floating floor becomes easier than trying to layout on exposed joists. Then float the new floor on neoprene right on this subfloor, as if it were a concrete slab. Of course, locate the pucks aligned with the joists or blocking which you had hopefully already done via the PLAN I suggested. This may have to be approved by the structural engineer as well as any PERMITTING authority also. Which is ANOTHER subject altogether, which you have not mentioned.

#3 Again, a third leaf scenario, but this time, instead of a decoupling layer between two layers of OSB, I would suggest the first one(OSB, drywall, OSB)
THEN, a special product(don't have the link) that is a
rollout layer of insulation with neoprene pucks packaged right in the insulation layer. This becomes the insulated airgap(thin) and decoupling. This airgap is very small and would not provide the kind of Low frequency isolation a deeper airgap provides. But it is a trade off. Then another subfloor layer(ply or OSB) and then the finish flooring. This would become a floating floor BETWEEN walls, as they would have to be floated SEPERATELY. Don't hold me to it, but I believe you cannot build walls on this type of floating floor. I could be wrong though, and my disclaimer especially is explicit for this example :D Just trying to help illustrate the possibilitys here within my knowledge. Ok, I'm out of time.
Cheers
fitZ
 
Conan, the "inside out wall" thing was originated by John Sayers, mainly for purposes of saving a few $ on framing and for small rooms that couldn't stand to lose another few square feet of floor area; it is NOT, repeat NOT, the best way to go for isolation.

For that, the optimum is ALWAYS 2 heavy masses, separated by an insulated air space - air space is defined for this purpose as anything you can blow through - anything you can NOT blow through is considered MASS. This is what we refer to as MAM, or mass-air-mass, construction. This is true for walls, ceilings, floors, windows, doors, anywhere you want maximum isolation.

As Fitz mentioned, you can't always get there from here; but you should always come as close as you can. If you MUST end up with more than two leaves of mass between isolated areas, then the only way I know to negate the problems this causes with low frequency isolation, is to "beef up" the two masses (separated by insulation/air) which are closest to the area to be isolated. The calculations for what triple (or more) leaves in a sound barrier do to mess up isolation are as yet un-known to me; even Eric Desart, who was responsible for the design of Galaxy studios in Belgium (over 100 STC between all rooms) has stated that these calculations are very difficult; if he can't do it, I'm sure not going to try.

In actual fact, having more than two masses in a sound barrier can actually HELP transmission loss at mid-high frequencies, but because the low end is where the worst problems are, this is what we need to concentrate on; fix the lows, and the mids/highs fix themselves (any wall keeps out higher frequencies easier, generally)

If you want good iso for dance music, this is WORST CASE and requires the MOST care and calculation; any and ALL directions the sound will travel need to be calculated for lowest MAM resonance, and this resonance needs to be a minimum of 2 OCTAVES below the lowest frequency you hope to stop.

This means that if you're running subs that put out full level at 30 hZ, the HIGHEST MAM resonance of any barrier should be no higher than 7 hZ - this requires a LOT of mass and WIDE air gap between, excellent DAMPING of the surfaces, and tight air seals - it also requires a REAL studio-oriented HVAC person to calculate the air handling system correctly; otherwise, all your OTHER preparations will be worthless as your subs merrily excite (not in a GOOD way) the rest of the neighborhood :=((

Examples - a double stud framed wall, with 3 layers of 5/8 gypsum on one side and two on the other, filled with insulation and distance between inner wallboard surfaces of 12 inches, has a MAM resonance of around 30 hZ - this means that 30 hZ will be its WEAKEST point, along with the critical frequency of 5/8 drywall at around 2500 hZ. (the critical freq isn't nearly as important as the bottom end though)

Compare this to a barrier that uses 6" and 4" concrete, with a 4" air/insulation gap - this would have a MAM resonance of 17 hZ, which could be improved by either thicker concrete, wider air gap, or both; 17 hZ resonance would still not be low enough to ensure that 30 hZ subs don't upset neighbors at higher SPL's, but it's a durn sight better than gypsum (although more expensive to build)

You can see from the above that the structural part needs to be addressed FIRST; last thing you need is for your floors/walls to come crashing down to the next floor, and likely keep going to the basement... Steve
 
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