Budget mics for Bluegrass recording

simpleybass said:
I can use just the B3 as a room mic (set to omni), but we got nice results using the B1 and B3 (set to cardioid) set up for x/y stereo, with B3 (upside down) right over the B1, turned out 80 degrees. Vocals and acoustic instruments from up to 5 people standing in a semi circle go into this stereo set-up nicely, especially when the band members position themselves properly around the mics.
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With a B1 and a B3, you can do a very nice MS setup that is ideal for miking acoustic musicians in a "gather round the mic" configuration. Set up the B1 aimed right at the center of the entire group. Place the B3 in its figure-8 setting in the same upside down position, with the two sides facing exactly to the sides of the group (so that the figure-8 null is pointing dead center).

Then mix the mics as follows: B1 gets panned dead center. The B3 gets split into two channels, one panned hard to the left, the other panned hard to the right and phase-inverted. Start by bringing up the level of the B1 to the desired level - it will be pure mono. Then bring up the two faders of the B3, keeping them exactly equal to each other (though not necessarily equal to the B1).

As you bring up the faders of the B3, you will find that your lovely mono recording gradually shifts to full stereo. You can determine the overall "width" of the stereo image by choosing the setting of your B3 faders.

This is an ideal way to capture a bluegrass band "in the round".
 
simpleybass said:
I also borrowed 2 SDCs from a friend who wasn't using them. They are Tascam PE-125 units. Anyone know anything about these mics? They have power switches with 3 settings: "off", "M", and "V". Any ideas what M and V mean?
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Probably a low cut switch, M for music and V for voice. The voice setting would be the low cut.

Also, you should enter the essay contest to win a free Shure 330 ribbon mic, which is a few threads down. :)
 
Harvey Gerst said:
Add a $39 Behringer ECM8000 to record the bass. Place it near the neck/body joint, pointed down towards the floor.
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Yes, yes, yes! Been there, done that, and it works well. (Not that Harvey needs a "second", but just thought I'd chime in.)

Dynamic mics can get the job done, but how well they sound seems to be more dependent on pre-amp quality, IMHO.

If you want your listeners to listen to the finished product more than once, stay away from overly "bright" mics. The KEL HM-1 looks worth investigating for a budget "bluegrass" condenser.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
Add a $39 Behringer ECM8000 to record the bass. Place it near the neck/body joint, pointed down towards the floor.
Click to expand...

Harvey, I'd like to try that setup, I'm hoping you could give me a bit more advice.

First, regarding the mic...I checked out the specs on the Behringer ECM8000. Do you think I might be able to use a Tascam PE-125? I can't find any useful info online about these mics, and I don't have a manual. They are 7.5" long and 3/4" diameter cylindrical small diameter condenser mics that take an internal AA battery. The case says "Professional Electret Condenser Microphone PE-125 imp 200 ohms Tascam TEAC professional division." They have changeable capsules, so I could use the omni. I'm thinking this might be reasonably similar to the ECM8000. If it doesnt sound good, I'll buy the Behringer.

However, I need more info about the mic placement so I can try the PE-125 before I buy another mic... "Near the neck/body joint, pointed toward the floor".... Do you mean in front of the strings, on the side (shoulder), or in the back of the instrument? About how far from the instrument? And did you mean this mic placement instead of the mic behind the tailpiece, or in addition to it.


Thanks!
 
simpleybass said:
Harvey, I'd like to try that setup, I'm hoping you could give me a bit more advice.

First, regarding the mic...I checked out the specs on the Behringer ECM8000. Do you think I might be able to use a Tascam PE-125? I can't find any useful info online about these mics, and I don't have a manual. They are 7.5" long and 3/4" diameter cylindrical small diameter condenser mics that take an internal AA battery. The case says "Professional Electret Condenser Microphone PE-125 imp 200 ohms Tascam TEAC professional division." They have changeable capsules, so I could use the omni. I'm thinking this might be reasonably similar to the ECM8000. If it doesnt sound good, I'll buy the Behringer.
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If you already own it, try it with the omni capsule. If the Tascam PE-125 is the mic I'm thinking about, it uses Primo capsules (and was made for Tascam by Primo). It's similar to the Nakamichi CM-300 mics.

However, I need more info about the mic placement so I can try the PE-125 before I buy another mic... "Near the neck/body joint, pointed toward the floor".... Do you mean in front of the strings, on the side (shoulder), or in the back of the instrument? About how far from the instrument? And did you mean this mic placement instead of the mic behind the tailpiece, or in addition to it?
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Yes, in front of the strings, on the side of the instrument, about 6" in front of the fingerboard. This is instead of your current placement. Since you're the bass player, try it before the next session and see if you like it. It's a very natural sound, no eq needed, and great if you do slap bass stuff.

Thanks!
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You're welcome.
 
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Whoops, one more thing. An upright bass can crap out the internal electronics of a Tascam PE-125; i.e., overload it.

If that happens, kludge a 6 or 12v small cigarette lighter battery in the housing in place of the AA, using a big bolt to take up any slack between the battery and the terminals.
 
simpleybass said:
How will I know if that happens? :confused:
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If the sound is distorted, chances are it's the mic's electronics that are the problem.

Most of the Nakamichi mics were made by Primo in Japan. There's a page here that shows all the models:

http://www.computorney.com/nak/

Tascam also used Primo for a lot of their mics, except they were supplied in silver rather than black. You can check to see which model looks most like your PE-125.
 
Hmmmm.....

Gilliland said:
With a B1 and a B3, you can do a very nice MS setup that is ideal for miking acoustic musicians in a "gather round the mic" configuration. Set up the B1 aimed right at the center of the entire group. Place the B3 in its figure-8 setting in the same upside down position, with the two sides facing exactly to the sides of the group (so that the figure-8 null is pointing dead center).

Then mix the mics as follows: B1 gets panned dead center. The B3 gets split into two channels, one panned hard to the left, the other panned hard to the right and phase-inverted. Start by bringing up the level of the B1 to the desired level - it will be pure mono. Then bring up the two faders of the B3, keeping them exactly equal to each other (though not necessarily equal to the B1).

As you bring up the faders of the B3, you will find that your lovely mono recording gradually shifts to full stereo. You can determine the overall "width" of the stereo image by choosing the setting of your B3 faders.

This is an ideal way to capture a bluegrass band "in the round".
Click to expand...

Gilliland,

I'd like to try that set up. I think I know how to do all of that except the phase inversion part.

How do I invert the phase of a channel? I'm recording with an analog 4 track cassette recorder. Typically I am mixing down 3 or 4 tracks on the 4 track and sending the mixed stereo output signal through a cheap external sound card (imic) to Audacity, and then exporting to WAV with little or no manipulation in Audacity. (The thread does have the work Budget in it).

Anyhow, the four track doesn't seem to have any invert phase options.

Any suggestions?

:confused:
 
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simpleybass said:
Anyone got suggestions to invert phases on an analog track??
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Digitally, it's pretty easy, but you can do it in the mic cord.

When you split the output of the B3 into two separate signals, you use an XLR cable that has Pins 2 and 3 reversed AT ONE END ONLY. That will give you an inverted polarity signal.
 
simpleybass said:
Gilliland,

I'd like to try that set up. I think I know how to do all of that except the phase inversion part.

:confused:
Click to expand...

Harvey is (as usual) exactly right. A very simple way to handle it is to build your own Y-cord, wiring one of the connectors in reverse. Pin 1 is connected straight through to both male ends. Pins 2 and 3 are connected straight through to pins 2 and 3 on one male, and in reverse to pins 3 and 2 on the other male. If you're not up to making your own, there's probably a cable or box on the market that will do it for you.

I'm glad you've decided to try it. After I posted that note, I was surprised that no one followed up. I used this technique to record Rhonda Vincent and the Rage a few years ago, and it turned out pretty nicely. (No, this had NOTHING to do with her live album, which is just great, but definitely wasn't recorded using M/S.)
 
Harvey Gerst said:
Add a $39 Behringer ECM8000 to record the bass. Place it near the neck/body joint, pointed down towards the floor.
Click to expand...

Harvey,

Would one of those Behringers sound good for digitally recording a soprano ukulele?

Thanks.

Andy
 
jumbosilverette said:
Harvey,

Would one of those Behringers sound good for digitally recording a soprano ukulele?

Thanks.

Andy
Click to expand...
I would think so, but I only have a standard uke and a baritone uke, so I can't say for sure.
 
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