Bleeding drum mics

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ausrock

ausrock

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I have 14 trks from my son's band which was recorded at a local "studio"..........the material has been transfered to our H/d recorder for us to play with.

The problem is an enormous amount of sound bleed between mics on the drums.

QUESTIONS: 1; is this normal.
2; if not, what is the best way to aviod it happening? (I dont want to make the same mistakes)
3; what mics are best used on drums to minimise this sound bleed?

Sonusman, Sjoko, Bruce.......anyone .............

Peace..........ChrisO
 
This is normal. Mic positioning can help a little... But there's always crosstalk between the mics. Better mics might even pick up more!! (I guess...)

You can try gating, if necessary... But normally you don't need it.

There are 2 main options: :D
1 Overdub the snare, kick, toms and cymbals seperately, :D
or
2 Triggers that play a sample.
No crosstalk in both cases. :D
 
Leakage is a good thing asumming the drums you have are recorded well.
It helps blend the drums into something tha is not sterile yet cohesive.

The reason to isolate would be to further process seperate parts
of the kit like snare .......
Using with taste a gate can do the job with the help of a bit of EQ.

Roel I hope you were kidding............
For me triggering is for hopeless drums
 
Recording drums is an art by itself. Setting-up and getting sound on a kit is by far the most time consuming element of tracking. In the past I have spend up to 4 days work "getting-it-right".

A number of things come into play:
1 - Recording room. The better the acoustic environment, the better drums will sound. A kit is an interaction between a large number of acoustic instruments, in close proximity to each other, covering the entire frequency spectrum. The better the room, the better the sound. Recording in a good room allows extensive use of room mics, creating a natural, full sound.
2 - Microphone placement and microphone choice. Placement is part-of-the-art, and critical. I will mic one set entirely different to another, it depends on the room, the mics used, the kit, the player, and the required sound. Mics for grums have improved greatly over the last decade, specialist drum mics are now plentifull and not to expensive. For cymbals and room mics - unfortunately here, you need the best possible.
3 - A player capable of tuning drums - a sadly lacking comodity, tuning a kit is as important as tuning a guitar.

Other things - I have noticed time and time again that it seems now a standard practise to put stuff like compressors, limiters, gates etc in the recording chain, even before you hear one noise! These are all tools to fix things - leave them until (and if) you need them!

Ausrock - bleeding is totally natural (which is why positioning and EQ are critical). If you are playing around with the tracks, try the following approach:

Start by working on each track individually. TAKE TIME. Start with your kick. Get the sound right, don't stop until you have got what you want. Then your snare, then your HH, toms etc.

14 tracks, cool, you will have room mics and perhaps 2 on the snare, 2 on the kick.
If 2 on the kick, it is likely one will have been placed for attack (perhaps near the hammer), one for debt. It should say so on your track sheets. Start with the full one, get a nice deep sound, then use the attack, but reduce the low end on this one, just use it to give you the attack, don't get a fight between 2 mics for the other frequencies.

If you have 2 mics on the snare, one will be top, one bottom - for the sound of the spring / snare. Like with the kick, use them for what they are there for only. Like on the bottom mic - get the snare sound, shelve the low out, you don't need it (unless etc).(note: If you have 2 mics on snare, one trick for a fuller snare sound is to reverse the phase on the bottom mic.)

Do the same for each drum, and also for your highhat and cymbal mics. Remember there - all you need is the sound of your HH and cymbals, apply EQ to get rid of unwanted noise (ie toms, kick etc.)

If you have room mics as well - we'll come back to those after you have finished with everything else.

Now you have gotten exactly what you want from each track, one little note:
DON'T MAKE THIS MISTAKE: I have been doing this stuff for over 3 decades. If it takes me a day, sometimes longer, to set-up drum sound for a mix, do you really think you can do it in an hour? IT TAKES TIME - TAKE YOUR TIME.

Now you have everything more or less how you like it, time to start putting it all together.
Start with panning the kit as though you are sitting bang center behind it, but place you snare central.
bring up you kick(s), set it at a decent level. Next add your snare(s), and everything else, one-by-one. Get a good balance between all the instruments, create a group when you are happy with the results, so you won't mess-up your balance by accident.

Note: if you are using a DAW - don't forget to create a stereo master fader first, so you can see your overall master levels.

Now for your room mics - if you have them. Pan there sharp left and right - but LISTEN to them carefully, they should be panned in accordance to your placement of the kit!!
Set them up so they sound as good as you can get them, then feed them into your mix. Group them as you did with the rest of the kit, now play with both groups untill you are happy with the balance and sound.

You might want to consider using some reverb on your snare.

Hope this helps, start practising, and don't forget, its a lot of work, treat it like that, don't be satisfied easily, and you will get results.
 
Shailat, Roel and especially Sjoko......Thank you all, each of you has made me think about how best to approach this.

Sjoko, to clarify things;
to call the place where the recordings were done a studio is really an overstatement and frankly I dont think mic placement was given too much consideration.
We have 14 tracks in total, 7 of those are drums and the only one that is almost free of bleed is the kick and even then the snare is quite noticable.
BUT, I will be following your advice to see if we can make something out of this material because until I get to finish our own studio (which will be as close to acoustically correct as I can possibly make it) these recordings are going to be our learning tools. We are basing our studio around a Soundcraft 24/8 console and Fostex 16 trk H/disc recorder. Maybe one day it will grow from there.

Again, many thanks guys.

Peace............ChrisO
 
Entirelly too correct!! I am an absolute newbie to recording, haven't got a space, and I do the monitoring while recording with HEADPHONES instead of studio monitors, in the worst sounding rooms...

And guess what... Even in this evil conditions I spent almost 2 hours setting up the mics for a 5 hour recording session. (We recorded over 40 minutes of music. Not all usefull, we take the good songs, leave the rest...)

A good tip is: stay relaxed; walk slow, get the musicians to have a drink and a chat, if the drummer takes a short break, leave him, start setting up something else for a while... When you spend all that time finding the right setup, you can really miss stressed situations.

I also recorded the different mic positions, while adjusting them. This way you can compare them more easily.
 
Maybe I´m late...maybe I´m a dumb...

Is it a wrong concept to try LO CUT in snare´s and cymbals tracks?
A gate is surely useful also.
A LO Pass filter can be useful too for the Kick track.
Am I mistaken?

Hope to be helpful...

PC
 
No not at all.
gates you have to be carefull with - all but the very best ones create horrible noise :)
 
I´ve heard so...

Is that awful noise due to very fast attack settings, wrong frequency handling and so on? Or is it due to my own ignorance and bad luck?
Anyway. Can the LO CUT and LO PASS filters help there?
I mean, in this drums we´ve been talking about...

Thanks

PC
 
Yes and yes.

Filters help a lot, mainly to eliminate bleeding from unrelated instruments.
For instance - cut cymbal mic's low end to eliminate toms, kick etc.
 
You´re the One...

Once again, you are the answer....
Thanks.
 
sjoko2 said:
Yes and yes.

Filters help a lot, mainly to eliminate bleeding from unrelated instruments.
For instance - cut cymbal mic's low end to eliminate toms, kick etc.

Or.....use a lowpass filter to cut cymbals out of toms.
A while back I wrote a drum mixing article and you can go and hear how I work the gates.
Now if I can only remember the site.......
www.geocities.com/shailat2000/index.html

The only problem is that from sample #11 the samples are gone........Thanks to Geocities for eliminating them.
I'll find another site to put them on soon.
 
is this bleeding red like human blood or blue or green like an alien?
 
Why does there have to be a smart arse in every crowd.......lmao.

Actually I am convinced that some of these small time, self opiniated, so called engineers working in there dog-boxes they call studios are really aliens working undercover to invade Earth, and my son's band found one of them. They take the young musician's hard earned cash, flatter them with all kinds of crap then turn out a substandard product. Unfortunately most kids are too naive and inexperienced to go back and punch the alien's lights out and get their money back!!!
 
YEP!

Sjoko, .....if you have either the inclination or opportunity have a listen to the songs on www.artists.mp3s.com/artists/151/scott_thomas. BTW it isn't the recordings I posted about.

Totally ignore the bullshit this guy has written BUT i would be interested in your opinions of the musicianship and recording itself.

I will explain if you reply......lol.

Peace.........ChrisO.
 
I'm a bad person to ask for an opinion.
The writing? - Might be ok in Oz - wouldn't do anything in the US or Europe.
The production? - I think its difficult to get it more unoriginal
The sound? - Same as the production. They screwed-up the MP3 conversion on the 2nd song.
Sorry you asked?
 
sjoko,
Would recording about 2 minutes of each drum track right before you track the drums be a bad idea for using as a refrence at mix down? If so, why?
Thanks
Adam
 
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