TelePaul
J to the R O C
i think 32 20 has the right idea...i may not be correct but it seems you arent either.
E
edgarallanpoe
New member
I never claimed that I was. I was simply offering another opinion that differed from yours. If that makes me an "asshole" and a "prick" then I guess I am guilty as charged. Do some research on the builders that I mentioned and you will see where I am comming from. An ebony body *would* be very expensive, but that isn't why it isn't used. I just dropped 6K on a Huber Redwood Dolphin. At those prices, Nik could easily afford to make the bodies out of ebony or even brazillian rosewood, but he doesn't. He chooses a lightweight Korina or Mahogany because they sound better. Period.
The Les Paul geeks argue this point all the time. Those cats spend 100K + on vintage Pauls and the price of them can be reduced dramatically if the guitar weighs too much. Anything over 9.5 lbs or under 8 can really effect the value of a vintage LP. I personally think they are crazy. As I have already stated, there are so many other factors that go into tone that weight is very far down on my list. I do prefer lightweight guitars as my main gigging guitars for comfort purposes only, although my two lightest guitars are also my best sounding. On the other hand, I have a Baker USA B1 that weighs in at close to 10 lbs and sounds like *god*.
IMHO Materials and build quality have much more of an impact on tone than weight does.
TelePaul
J to the R O C
edgarallanpoe said:
Finally, admitting it.
3
32-20-Blues
New member
Rosewood as a tonewood in the purest and strictest sense of the word (i.e, in its application as an acoustic guitar soundboard) is unbeatable. I take the point that rosewood Fenders have a bad reputation, but it should be considered that the period in which they were being produced represented a nadir of quality for the CBS owned plant. It was then not uncommon for a guitar to be a composite of six or seven seperate slabs, and the pick-ups were notoriously weak and thin. Not only were the rosewood Fenders below quality, but the alder and ash ones were pretty sub-par also.
Korina, while a versatile timber, may not necessarily be 'the holy grail' of tonewood. Its uses in the production of acoustic guitars are limited, which surely is the most precise method of evaluating the quality of a specific type of timber. It is, however, an alternative to mahogany, and is thus prized, now that the importing of mahogany is restricted.
While I agree that materials and build quality are inherently important when the issue of tone is considered, it should possibly pointed out that materials and mass are largely related.
Korina, while a versatile timber, may not necessarily be 'the holy grail' of tonewood. Its uses in the production of acoustic guitars are limited, which surely is the most precise method of evaluating the quality of a specific type of timber. It is, however, an alternative to mahogany, and is thus prized, now that the importing of mahogany is restricted.
While I agree that materials and build quality are inherently important when the issue of tone is considered, it should possibly pointed out that materials and mass are largely related.
E
edgarallanpoe
New member
I completely agree, but I was speaking purely about the electric guitar. My main acoustic is rosewood back and sides and in that particular instance, it sounds amazing. But when used in that respect, it is completely different than making a solid body rosewood. Acoustic guitars are designed to make the sound project from the top. A hard back and sides forces more of the sound out of the front hole which increases volume. Breedlove even makes 12 strings with ebony back and sides that sound wonderful( So much for that "they are impossible to get" theory eh?) My korina comment was strictly made for electric guitar.
I also see your point about the rosewood teles of that era of Fender. But why hasn't it been tried since? Luthiers are constantly looking for something that will set them apart from the pack. If a solid rosewood bodied electric sounded good, someone would be making it. Indian rosewood is actually less expensive than most mahogany.
I would disagree with you on one point though...and I hope it doesn't make me an asshole...lol... IMHO a hot pickup does not increase sustain. A hot pickup creates a strong magnetic field that actually retards string vibration and thereby decreasing sustain. Duncan used to make the Holdsworth pickup and they subscribe to this theory as well. The Holdsworth pup had a fairly weak output and was wound to have a huge midrange hump. The end result was a pickup that gave Holdsworth that long sustaining violin sound that he is renown for. The big sustaining vintage Pauls all have pups in the 8.5k range which is weak by todays standards. A Duncan JB specs out at around 12k+ ( I actually had one in the late 80s that posted a whopping 27K!! HOLY SHIT!!! LOL!!) and the Holdsworth I believe was somewhere around 7K. Again...lots of the boooooteeeek pup makers agree with this and very few of them wind the uber hot pups that Duncan and Dimarzio make. Just my 2 cents.
I also see your point about the rosewood teles of that era of Fender. But why hasn't it been tried since? Luthiers are constantly looking for something that will set them apart from the pack. If a solid rosewood bodied electric sounded good, someone would be making it. Indian rosewood is actually less expensive than most mahogany.
I would disagree with you on one point though...and I hope it doesn't make me an asshole...lol... IMHO a hot pickup does not increase sustain. A hot pickup creates a strong magnetic field that actually retards string vibration and thereby decreasing sustain. Duncan used to make the Holdsworth pickup and they subscribe to this theory as well. The Holdsworth pup had a fairly weak output and was wound to have a huge midrange hump. The end result was a pickup that gave Holdsworth that long sustaining violin sound that he is renown for. The big sustaining vintage Pauls all have pups in the 8.5k range which is weak by todays standards. A Duncan JB specs out at around 12k+ ( I actually had one in the late 80s that posted a whopping 27K!! HOLY SHIT!!! LOL!!) and the Holdsworth I believe was somewhere around 7K. Again...lots of the boooooteeeek pup makers agree with this and very few of them wind the uber hot pups that Duncan and Dimarzio make. Just my 2 cents.
3
32-20-Blues
New member
Yeah, your thoughts on the pick up make a lot of sense; a strong magnetic field would dramatically reduce vibration. On the other hand, too weak and you immediately find yourself in late 70's Fender territory - economically wound pick-ups that gave an 'interesting' sound for almost staccato-like country music, but were otherwise useless.
With regard to rosewood as a body material, the issue of comfort obviously plays a part. Apart from that, it tends - in acoustic use - to preserve clarity in the top and the lows, which would suggest an almost metallic sound if used in any great amount for an electric guitar. I would imagine that it does not 'colour' the sound the way you might expect a timber to. From my (limited) experience with it in a solid body, it was almost synthetic.
I have a classical with rosewood back and sides and a cedar top - just beautiful, and yes, I agree that tonewoods such as rosewood, walnut and koa aid the projection of sound considerably.
I have seen the Breedloves with the ebony backs and sides, and I would hate to be the luthier that has to work with that stuff. It is, as far as I am aware, the most dense of the hardwoods. A solid body guitar made entirely from that would, I imagine, sustain for quite some time due to rigidity, etc, but would have no 'organic' feel - the way the woods interact with the string and influence the ultimate sound.
By the way, what is your background in relation to music? You seem to know quite a bit.
With regard to rosewood as a body material, the issue of comfort obviously plays a part. Apart from that, it tends - in acoustic use - to preserve clarity in the top and the lows, which would suggest an almost metallic sound if used in any great amount for an electric guitar. I would imagine that it does not 'colour' the sound the way you might expect a timber to. From my (limited) experience with it in a solid body, it was almost synthetic.
I have a classical with rosewood back and sides and a cedar top - just beautiful, and yes, I agree that tonewoods such as rosewood, walnut and koa aid the projection of sound considerably.
I have seen the Breedloves with the ebony backs and sides, and I would hate to be the luthier that has to work with that stuff. It is, as far as I am aware, the most dense of the hardwoods. A solid body guitar made entirely from that would, I imagine, sustain for quite some time due to rigidity, etc, but would have no 'organic' feel - the way the woods interact with the string and influence the ultimate sound.
By the way, what is your background in relation to music? You seem to know quite a bit.
E
edgarallanpoe
New member
Thank you. I have been a gigging musician for well over 20 years now. I have always been a bit of a gear head so the experiences add up. I never had the balls to do it as my main profession but I have been on the music scene in Pittsburgh for a long time. I have quite a few friends in the music business and have always respected them for making a hard living. One of them is actually a session guy in LA. He does scores for movies and TV shows.
The nuts and bolts of the electric guitar have always fascinated me. I have owned *way* too many guitars and amps to list. You name it, I had/have it. My search for the ultimate electric guitar is still ongoing, but my Huber Redwood is as close as I have ever come. Check his stuff out....heafty price, but worth every penny. Yes...I gig with them. Guitars are tools...not collectors pieces to me. If a guitar isn't getting played, it gets sold. I have no emotional attachment thank god...LOL!!
http://www.nikhuber-guitars.com/2006_home.htm
What about you?
3
32-20-Blues
New member
edgarallanpoe said:
I'm 21, playing since 16. I spend most of my time arranging traditional Irish music for the guitar. I own a Stratocaster, a La Patrie classical, and a lapsteel.
Like you, I have an interest in the mechanics and the physics of the guitar. I am consistently amazed that so many people pick up the instrument and are content to learn very little about its actual workings. I like to do as much of my own work on my stuff as I can.
I spend a lot of time constructing banjos out of biscuit tins, oil drums and anything else I can find. I suppose that's where my interest in the factors influencing sound comes from. Salad bowl ukuleles, plywood harps, Ill give anything a shot. I have also built a mahogany thinline telecaster, and am planning a harp guitar. It is all helped by the fact that although my master is English, I studied physics for some time.
I hope to be able to say one day that I have had twenty years in the business. That's seriously impressive. Good to meet someone that knows his stuff.
espskully
New member
I put a Bigsby on my Les Paul Custom. It rocks. BUT I have another Lester with a set bridge.
E
edgarallanpoe
New member
Thats fantastic..its great to see a young buck like yourself who actually appreciates his instrument enough to learn about it. Too many guys your age just tune it down and trudge yet never even bother to learn how the instrument works...hell...most of them can't even setup their own instruments!
BTW I spent some time on the Emerald Isle in 1994 and found it to be a wonderful place with amazing people. Their taste in beer was the icing on the cake..LOL!! I can't wait to get back there someday soon. If I do, I will look you up and we can shoot the shit over a couple of pints.
TelePaul
J to the R O C
edgarallanpoe said:
Can i come too?
ez_willis
.
edgarallanpoe said:
I think I'm made from rosewood.