Bigger monitors or subwoofer?

S

StackableMusic

New member
Hi all,

Yet another monitor question for everybody:

I'm currently saving up some cash for a studio upgrade (more on that later!), and I've been having some successes with doing some recordings and getting some positive responses from demos. But, I have a big problem: I have no idea what's going on in the bass register.

I'm using Event TR5s which were good enough in my Brooklyn apartment because I couldn't turn it up to above quiet conversation volume. Now that I can actually, you know, LISTEN to my mixes on the monitors I've been trusting them more (I was doing most of my mixes on headphones in my apartment), which has been a big problem because I keep massively overhyping the bass... overcompensating for the lack of bass in the monitors.

Eventually I'd like to get some nice 8" monitors (Mackie HR824s? Maybe) but my budget for the studio first has to go to the remodel. So here's the question: for the time being, would it do me any good to get a subwoofer (maybe the KRK 10" one?). Is a sub with 5" speakers a stupid idea?
 
You're facing the same situation that I did a year ago with my M-Audio BX5s. I picked up the SBX 8" sub ($200 on sale)--problem solved, after carefully integrating the sub. Form the research I did, I learned that 5" monitors are particularly well suited to a small sub unless you're working in a large room and need massive volume. Not everyone here likes using a sub, I know, but I'm very satisfied with my system--no more guessing and mixes are translating quite well. If you like the sound of your Events, then this may be a good option.

One suggestion: buy a sub that has some sort of bass-management system(adjustable crossover) so that your sub and monitors don't overlap the low end. Many subs offer it, even some low-end models, and it certainly helps.

Good luck,
J.
 
Please keep in mind that I'm a rookie at mixing and home recording in general so, my response should be discounted as such. I have KRK RP 5's and use a KRK RP 10S sub. Even though your Event TR 5's are likely a step (or two) above my RP 5's, I'm sure the deficiencies in the lower frequencies are similar. Even though I primarily record acoustic guitar and voice, the addition of the sub really made a diffenence. Even the hyped mid's of the RP 5's seemed less noticable. So far, I'm pleased with my results.

Should if I decide to upgrade in the future, I will likely keep this setup for comparison purposes. I will certainly keep the RP 10 as it is a very solid unit. I have a 12" M & K (down-firing) sub on my home theater system and performance-wise the KRK is comparable.
 
The sub approach is solid IF you calibrate the sub. Otherwise, it's a waste of your time.

I used a 10" sub with 6.5" monitors for 3 years, but eventually I grew unsatisfied; now I am going to 10" mains :eek: :o
 
Ok, I think I'm going to go forward with getting a KRK 10" - Event has a competing unit but it only has RCA outs to the monitors(!?).

What steps should I take to calibrate the setup?
 
damn interesting topic.

bass management in a room, in a HR environment...

it'll come down to your mixes of course, but thats not the question is it?

you want to know how to set it up so you can quantify your crossover and all that jazz.

I tried putting the Sub on foam pads, off the floor to reduce vibrating things.
I tried the sub on the desktop at ear level placed in between the monitors (which was cool)....move it around until it works, is another method some use.

Measuring with a db meter, measuring with a RTA mic/Software are tools that can help...

I kind of gave in and just went for the Nearfield EE triangle, mix seat as getting the room balanced was too much work and bass traps and all the rest.

Then I tore down that room and started over in another room, and I'm sitting here all fhkd up again, but I'm smarter now. :D
 
StackableMusic said:
Is a sub with 5" speakers a stupid idea?
Click to expand...
Yeah, probably. :D

For 2-channel production a pair of full-range speakers is better than smaller speakers with a sub because less can go wrong when fewer signals combine in the air from multiple locations.

--Ethan
 
Ethan Winer said:
Yeah, probably. :D

For 2-channel production a pair of full-range speakers is better than smaller speakers with a sub because less can go wrong when fewer signals combine in the air from multiple locations.

--Ethan
Click to expand...

A nicer pair of monitors is not an option at this point. The question is: is a sub going to be better or worse than no sub.

EDIT: so I guess the thread title is kind of misleading. I was getting prices as I was typing.
 
StackableMusic said:
Hi all,

Yet another monitor question for everybody:
I have a big problem: I have no idea what's going on in the bass register.

I'm using Event TR5s

I keep massively overhyping the bass... overcompensating for the lack of bass in the monitors.

my budget for the studio first has to go to the remodel.

So here's the question: for the time being, would it do me any good to get a subwoofer (maybe the KRK 10" one?). Is a sub with 5" speakers a stupid idea?
Click to expand...

rereading your post, you sound like your on the right track.
you have the problem focused on: over-hyped bass in the mix

remodeling first... as your going into the "bass" trouble shooting and improving work...er...or fun..depending how one looks at it.
for the time being, you didn't mention how much to spend between remodeling and getting some more bass freq's going via sub or new monitors?

adding a sub, or bass freq's in other words, can take a lot of work off your smaller speakers which will usually change the TR5 sound immensely, I'd predict.

being a cheap bastard, I'd do some room work too, 703 is cheap. you'll most likely get more mileage from your TR5's with the room improved.

I'll bet no matter what you do, reading Ethans site on this room work, and some EE triangle and bass trap positions etc.. you'll hear improvements immediately. (the EE tri and starter trap drawing is my favorite)
http://www.ethanwiner.com/articles.html

I was clueless to the room effect, but i really noticed a large improvements with the first several bass traps, I think about 8qty 703's..the basic handclapping ringing and sheetrock hell was tamed a lot. then added a few more but the noticeable difference was getting too subtle for my budget and needs, but obviously the monitors sounded better :D ....

monitors and room, mic and preamp, peanut butter and jelly..their joined at the hip, complementary.
 
If money is no object I don't think there is any doubt that two larger monitors is the better way to go. But given that money doesn't grow on trees ya got to do what you got to do. I personally went with the event asp8's after comparing them to the hr824's and the jbl4328's.


F.S.
 
StackableMusic,

With regard to your question on calibrating the sub, I did a lot of experimenting with my RP 10 before I got it close to what sounded decent on the final mix and I'm still tweaking a bit. My studio (small 12' X 13' bedroom) is only mildly treated with regard to bass traps. I will be adding some additional wall treatment in the near future and will probably have to start all over again. But that's half the fun.
 
I'm sure it will help if you spend the time to integrate it effectively. Get past that urge to go for "big low end" and let it just fill in enough to extend the low freqs naturally. Use some good reference CDs to compare the sound to other systems, and I think you'll end up with a pretty workable rig considering the low cost.

Best,

J.
 
I guess it's really too late for my opinion, but I'll put it out there anyway. If I were you, I wouldn't have got the sub. I would have waited for the money to get the 8" mains. My whole reason for that is very simple.

1) Rread what Ethan stated a few posts back about having multiple sound sources.

2) You stated that down the road you are going to be getting some 8" mains anyway, and it also sounds like money is somewhat of an issue (as it is with my studio, and most others building their own home studio). That being said, you are spending money on something that will be of no use to you at that point, and you could be 220 bucks closer to your monitors had you waited.

3) Here's the important one.... for now, you already know your mixes have too much bass becasue you have been compensating for your current speaker setup. If you are going to ever progress and improve your abilities and techniques you have to learn how to take these things into consideration and adjust accordingly. If you know you are putting in too much bass, then start taking some out and learn to work with the equipment you have until you get the equipment you REALLY WANT. Not only will your mixes sound better with no money spent, but you'll be gaining valuable mix experience that will help you out down the road. Yes it is more challenging this way, but who cares. Give em hell!!!
 
89gtsleeper said:
3) Here's the important one.... for now, you already know your mixes have too much bass becasue you have been compensating for your current speaker setup. If you are going to ever progress and improve your abilities and techniques you have to learn how to take these things into consideration and adjust accordingly. If you know you are putting in too much bass, then start taking some out and learn to work with the equipment you have until you get the equipment you REALLY WANT. Not only will your mixes sound better with no money spent, but you'll be gaining valuable mix experience that will help you out down the road. Yes it is more challenging this way, but who cares. Give em hell!!!
Click to expand...

The problem with that is that on my last gig, clients wanted to come to the mixing session and I had to tell them they couldn't. The alleged reason was that I'm "remodeling" but the real reason was that there's no way a client is going to be able to "listen through" the fact that there's no bass and that I can only detect kick drums by touching my bare foot to my desk. Not acceptable.

It's going to be about 2 years before I can afford 8" monitors, and I'd like to make some music before then.
 
Ok, so I've had the sub for a couple of weeks. I haven't done any finished mixes since then so I'm not positive about what I'm hearing right now (haven't done any comparisons) but COOLCAT was right when he said it would improve the sound of my TR5s. (Another improvement was that I started using XLR cables instead of cheapo TS cables).

I did a quasi-"scientific" calibration where I set up a microphone (a shure KSM32, which allegedly has a flat response between 1000 and 20 hz) at my listening position and then recorded white noise. Because my room sucks, the reponse wasn't at all flat but I got the peaks and valleys to be about the same across the spectrum from about 35-40 Hz (under which it drops off sharply) up to about 2000Hz (except a troubling dip at 400Hz which I assume is due to room problems).

It sounds a LOT different now. Now I'm concerned about *under*hyping the bass, because the bass is SOLID now. So I will have to make some tunes and report back if there are any big surprises. The main thing that I'm noticing so far is that I think the bass is louder than it is because I can feel it through my desk so well. If I take my hands off it seems pretty normal (though much bassier than I'm used to) but if I grab my mouse my hand is bouncing along with the kick drum.
 
yeah, thinking like a speaker and its workload a bass/sub would remove a lot of the work from the smaller speaker. I had the same thing happen once adding a sub and the speakers just sounded completey different.

I even put my sub up in the middle of the EE triangle once...it was alright, kind of akward ergonomically, but I saw a movie last night that was discussing Movie Music studio stuff and they had their sub up on the console too in the center... of course they were doing 5.1 mixing. Barefoots speakers are 3 way, and the sub is in the cab, up in the EE triangle, their frkn the best design I'd ever seen..the Micro's anyway..

of course you just increased the bass in the room...so the key word here is "room".. now.

its never ending. :D
 
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