BEWARE - iLok required for Waves Plugs

  • Thread starter Thread starter PhiloBeddoe
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Its not the $40 device I'm concerned about- you buy it once and you use it for everything. Compared to a $4000 Waves bundle, its pretty insignificant.

Its the $3000 worth of software I lost with the $40 bit of blue plastic that concerns me. :mad: I didn't pay that much for it, but that's how much it would cost to replace it.

-C
 
Adam P said:
Return the software and tell them to fuck themselves (Waves, that is). Of course, I'm sure there's a strict "no returns" policy for software.

Agreed. You should not under any circumstances put up with a hardware dongle requirement. Hardware dongles have no place in a system that could potentially be used in the field like a DAW. Dongles are evil.

By the way, thanks for the tip. I was actually considering buying one of their plug-ins. I'm not considering it anymore....
 
A few years ago I bought the Waves Renaissance Bundle to provide some options to the Sonar 2 plugs. It was when they dropped the dongle requirement and went to the challenge/response system. It was quite a fiasco to get them authorized. Demos were automatically installed for ALL Waves products and every step of the way I had to wade through many popup windows asking if I wanted authorize every plugin they made. The whole deal took about a week to achieve a hassle free experience when trying to add a little eq or compression to a track!
Then my computer crashed. It was old, underpowered and not really suitable for serious audio production. So I bought a custom made computer and happily went about the business of setting it up. It was fairly painless to get all my recording software installed and running (I had purchased more from other vendors before the crash)- except when it came to the Renaissance Bundle. The old challenge/response wouldn't work so I had to get a new one. Waves was cool about it and supplied the new response.
Then, Sonar3 (I had upgraded by that time) began crashing everytime a Waves plug was opened on a track. Cakewalk suggested uninstalling and reinstalling Waves. I tried that, but of course the old response wouldn't work for the challenge. I contacted Waves, explained the scenario, and they denied reauthorization. I then decided to never, ever spend money on a Waves product again - and I was looking into a major upgrade at the time.
Since I've upgraded to Sonar4, a UAD-1 card, and various other plugin vendors. Just for sport I contacted Waves again, explained the scenario, and they agreed to reauthorize. Finally, THANKYOU!
Now I must say - with the UAD-1, Voxengo, Sonitus, PSP, Kjaerhus and dbaudioware plugins in my toolbox the WAVES plugs are rarely used. If something happens I probably won't bother to go through the rigomaroll it takes to use their junk. Too many other choices out there that work painlessly and sound just as good. And lately I've heard complaints that WAVES is going toward an annual fee to use their stuff. If this is true I don't care to even read their name in print again.
Sure, Waves software is good stuff. But so are MANY other vendors that are more customer friendly.
 
tkingen said:
And lately I've heard complaints that WAVES is going toward an annual fee to use their stuff.

A lot of software companies have annual upgrades that sort of work out to be like an annual fee. But you don't have to upgrade if you don't want to. And if you don't upgrade, your current version of the software will continue to work.

What Waves is talking about, and I've read this elsewhere as well, is basically a subscription. Once the subscription expires you no longer have use of the plugins.

It doesn't matter if it is Waves or any other software company, that particular business model doesn't work for me at all. I'd run so fast from any product from that company it wouldn't be funny.

I think there is a certain satisfaction and comfort level from "owning" the tools you work on. Coming from hardware, where we all were even just a few years ago, the "owning" experience is how we did it. From that we went to a "license", which is all we really have when we use pretty much any commercial software. But the smart companies make the license feel and function essentailly the same as owning. "Subscription" is the next step and I think feels different from owning or open-ended licensing.

Copy protection is one reason why I have gone back to hardware in a big way. I've just had too many bad experiences with failed authorizations, software companies going out of business, and software becoming incompatible over time. I think the tide may be gradually turning, as more and more people I speak with are getting fed up with all-digital plugin mixes and expressing and interest in going back to hardware.
 
SonicAlbert said:
I think there is a certain satisfaction and comfort level from "owning" the tools you work on. Coming from hardware, where we all were even just a few years ago, the "owning" experience is how we did it. From that we went to a "license", which is all we really have when we use pretty much any commercial software. But the smart companies make the license feel and function essentailly the same as owning. "Subscription" is the next step and I think feels different from owning or open-ended licensing.

Subscriptions are the final step towards pissing off so many musicians that they find themselves replaced by free, GPLed plug-ins. Waves should keep in mind just how distasteful subscriptions are to their customer base and turn back while they still can. There's no such thing as an irreplaceable plug-in, nor a plug-in that takes so long to rewrite that it wouldn't be worth it for many developers, given a high enough price tag....

The only way I would ever pay some sleazy software company for a subscription to software is if the lifetime (for my lifetime) cost of that subscription was less than the purchase price (or maybe slightly more to account for the fact that I typically do a paid upgrade for commercial apps once on average, generally resulting from a massive change like an OS change).

The problem is that, like most people, I rarely, if ever, go out and buy an upgraded version of an app because of new features; if the app did what I needed before, it still does, and if it didn't, I would have bought a different app or waited until it did. Subscriptions are an attempt to force me to pay for the limited sales of the company's product. That's what I despise is that it is an attempt to force the customer to basically pay for the fact that only one out of ten of their users paid for the software to begin with.

What I don't get is this: if these companies wouldn't make their software so overpriced, they would drastically improve the sales-to-piracy ratio. Most of those people who pirate the stuff are people who don't use the software commercially and can't afford to pay five prices for plug-ins. If the software cost a reasonable amount, home recording enthusiasts would buy it in droves. If they cut their price in half, they would likely sell three times as much. Cut it to a fourth, they would sell ten times as much. It just amazes me that these companies with such poor understanding of supply and demand stay in business at all.

For that matter, why can't you buy pieces of the Waves bundles? There are one or two plug-ins in each bundle that look interesting; the rest are nearly perfect duplicates of plug-ins that I already own from other companies. I'm not about to buy $350 in software just to get the $50 worth that I care about. The marginal utility is nowhere near $400 worth. It's $50 worth. If they would part it out (and not use iLok), a -huge- number of people would buy some of the individual plug-ins in a heartbeat!

IMHO, the level of piracy they experience is karmic justice for their incompetent (bordering on criminally negligent) marketing (pricing, bundling, etc.). I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way. It's a classic case of ignoring the fair market value of your product and price gouging because you think the software is too ingrained in some people's setups for them to change to a competing product. Eventually, such companies have a tendency to collapse like a house of cards. Yo, Waves? Buh-bye. Dead man walking.
 
SonicAlbert said:
There you go, my solution as well. Couldn't care less about OS upgrades, new hard drivees, new computer, etc. Of course, I use a few plugins, but have in general fought the tide.

One of the major reasons I've avoided plugins, iLok, etc., is because of the copy protection. I have used software to make music since the 80's. The only programs I can't use, even on legacy systems, are those that had a copy protection scheme. They seem to inevitably fail, no matter what the technology.

I have hardware from the 80's that still works fine and I use. There isn't a single piece of software from that time that I still use, or can use. I've come to the conclusion that it's not worth it. Hardware may seem like more money up front, but over the very long term the difference between what you spend on hardware versus plugins is going to be very little. Hardware has a longer useful lifespan, and you can sell it used if you wish.

Of course, some software is simply necessary and can't be avoided. But I do keep it to as much of a minimum as possible. A couple major DAW programs, a few plugins, and a few virtual instruments. That's as far as I plan to go. I just don't like the problems with copy protection, I've been burned big time over the years.

Amen to that fellas!!!!
 
One of the things that I find mildly amusing.

Since I went back to hardware mixing, I noticed that even cheap old gear frequently sounds better than the plugins. I have an Ensoniq DP/4- 4 mono processors that can be linked in any combination of mono, stereo, parallel or serial. 16 bit, made in the 90's.

As a reverb it kicks the crap out of Ren Verb. I like Ren Verb- its one of my favorite verb plugs- but the old DP/4 sounds better with less work to me. And takes zero CPU, of course. I also have a TC m2000- bought used for about the same price as Ren Verb would cost- and it beats the snot out of the plugin. With S/PDIF I can even use it as an insert in Pro Tools and use it like a plugin. And that's just talking about reverb- both boxes do a host of other things including EQ's, compression, distortion, and all kinds of time-based effects.

And REQ pales in comparison to the to 20 channels of 3 band sweeps I have on the Tascam M520 and the 16 channels of High/Low pass with 2 mid sweeps on the Soundtracs SOLO. All CPU free and sweet sounding.

Ever do a side-by-side comparison of something like the Ren Comp and an RNC or RNLA? I like the Ren Comp a lot, but it can't compete with hardware that costs half as much. I was mixing a new grass band a while back in the box and we were stuggling to get a weak bass track to have the punch it needed. I routed the session out to the mixer and inserted an old dbx 166 (first compressor I ever bought- 12 years ago) on the bass... the producer sat bolt upright and said "That's it!! What did you do?!" and we remixed the entire demo analog.

The *only* advantages to plugins, in my mind, are convenience and cost. So far it looks like the plug in manufacturers are doing their best to erase those advantages.

Take care,
Chris
 
The other advantage to plugins is automation and instant recallability. Those two factors are two of the most important, and probably why plugins are so popular right now.

Over time I think people will begin to realize that the cost factor of plugins is not really too much of an advantage over hardware.

The cool thing about everyone going nuts over plugins right now is that I've been able to pick up some great/classic gear for really cheap. I'm talking about buying hardware for way less or equal to what a comparable plugin would cost. In a way I hope nobody wakes up for a while, at least until I have everything I want for my racks!
 
Neither my Sony console or my Kurzweil require "authorization" of any kind.... just turn them on and I'm mixing! ;)
 
SonicAlbert said:
I have hardware from the 80's that still works fine and I use. There isn't a single piece of software from that time that I still use, or can use. I've come to the conclusion that it's not worth it. Hardware may seem like more money up front, but over the very long term the difference between what you spend on hardware versus plugins is going to be very little. Hardware has a longer useful lifespan, and you can sell it used if you wish.

all points i'm currently considering......

f' waves
 
Yeah, total mix recall is great.

You can futz with a project forever and never finish it. I really like that aspect of ITB mixing. :rolleyes:

I should shut up now, or all the cheap gear I've been amassing in the last year is going to go through the roof... :D

-C
 
Chris thats a good point there,i never noticed that and you just pointed it out to me :D
Guilty!
 
Dumb ?, I've had Waves NPP and Renn. Collection running happily on my PC since 2003. I have no need to upgrade versions or add more plug-ins. Would I have to go to iLok if I need them to re-authorize my plug-ins on a new Hard drive or Processor if I ever upgrade my system drive (or my entire system) ? I went through the old re-authorization process when I got my new system in 2003 and it went fine with them sending me a new response to my new challenge. I'd hate to be forced to buy an iLok if I ever replace my system drive (please don't crash Mr. Hard drive!!!)
 
Why would PT need a dongle? You already have to have their hardware :confused:

I just bought my second UAD-1 :) I dunno about that cheap hardware route, there is no compressor I can afford that is better than their LA2A plug. I couldn't even come close to building one for the $150 it costs. And I know I can't possibly beat the 8 or 10 Pultecs I can run simultaneously for $100.
 
gordone, Waves hard drive authorizations are a thing of the past. If for some reason you need to re-authorize your same plugins you need to pay for WUP and an iLok. At least that is how I understand it, and this is what has gotten so many people upset.

mshilarious said:
Why would PT need a dongle? You already have to have their hardware :confused:

The iLok in PT is for 3rd party plugins, not PT itself. The hardware does indeed function as a dongle, since Pt won't run without identifying that Digi hardware is connected to the system.
 
SonicAlbert said:
The iLok in PT is for 3rd party plugins, not PT itself. The hardware does indeed function as a dongle, since Pt won't run without identifying that Digi hardware is connected to the system.

With PT M-Powered, the iLok is required for the PT M-Powered authorization. That differs from the PT-LE systems, where the Digi hardware is effectively your dongle.
 
Raw-Tracks said:
With PT M-Powered, the iLok is required for the PT M-Powered authorization. That differs from the PT-LE systems, where the Digi hardware is effectively your dongle.

Thanks for that correction, I forgot about the M-Audio interfaces.
 
mshilarious said:
I just bought my second UAD-1 :) I dunno about that cheap hardware route, there is no compressor I can afford that is better than their LA2A plug. I couldn't even come close to building one for the $150 it costs. And I know I can't possibly beat the 8 or 10 Pultecs I can run simultaneously for $100.

Ever mixed on half decent hardware? While I agree that software mixing gives you a LOT more options (I have the BF Pultecs now and I love them- and treat the damned iLok they're on like a piece of platinum...got 'em for $12.50 with PT LE 7 upgrade :D), I can often acheive about the same thing with the hardware I've got and some creativity.

The RNLA is a great little box and gives me useful alternatives to an 1176 or LA2A plug for a squashed drum submix. A couple RNC's offer high quality meat-n-potatoes compression or master channel glue. A dbx 160 and 166 offer more colored compression.

All of the EQ's on my boards have overlapping mid sweeps so I can do the pultec cut/boost thing if I want. Not the same, of course, but then the plugs aren't the same as the hardware.

Anyway, I don't mean to downplay the advantages of ITB mixing- they're very real and I have a control surface because I do enjoy ITB mixing with hands on control. I'm just surpirsed at how easy it was to replace all the "fancy" plugins I have with some carefully scouted low-cost hardware. And it frequently sounds better for all that I don't have as many options.

And my analog mixing systems never pop up "CPU over taxed" warnings or crash. :D I can even switch to ADAT or reel to reel recording without skipping a beat.

Take care,
Chris
 
Chris Shaeffer said:
Ever mixed on half decent hardware?

I don't know, you'll have to define half-decent. Probably the answer will be no. The price of the software LA2A is about twice what I paid for a used dbx 262, figure I can run at least 2 LA2As, so that's about even money. I'm pretty sure I know which one I think sounds better.

All of the EQ's on my boards have overlapping mid sweeps so I can do the pultec cut/boost thing if I want. Not the same, of course, but then the plugs aren't the same as the hardware.

I have an A&H board with decent EQ, but the Pultec totally kills it.


And my analog mixing systems never pop up "CPU over taxed" warnings or crash. :D I can even switch to ADAT or reel to reel recording without skipping a beat.

Again, UAD-1 :) I have an HD24 too, but I always transfer it ITB for mixdown, cause I ain't using the onboard MixWiz reverbs for final mixes ;)
 
Yeah- I've wished for DSP cards with my Pro Tools LE system at times. But I'm laptop based so I'd have to use FW-based units... and they don't work too well with the VST wrapped plugs. Oh, well.

- Chris
 
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