Benefit to go with 96k?

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frist44

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Is there a huge difference in audible sound quality when switching from 44.1k to 96k? I've heard a couple say that it doesn't really sound that different, which taking up twice as much space on the hard drive and bogging down the processor even more.

any opinions would be appreciated.

thanks,
Brandon
 
I think you really have to be at a certain level to hear the difference. Personally I can't...but I'm just a guy in the spare bedroom of my house.

There was an interesting presentation by Rupert Neve that got posted to the cave recently. In it he talked at some length about hearing *and* perception. It seems that his company once built a console for some engineer, and that engineer swore there was something wrong just three channels on the board. They had some techs go out and work on the thing, but they came back saying there was nothing wrong, and they couldn't measure or hear any difference in the channels in question compared to the rest of the channels. Well, after a bit of time and frustration, Neve himself went to visit the guy, and upon furthur inspection (where nobody would have thought to inspect), it was found that there was a measly 3db spike in these three channels at a frequency OVER 50Khz! The engineer couldn't *hear* it, but he could feel it.

He also discussed a study done in japan where the brain was monitored while listening to music (or sounds, I don't know the real specifics). When a filter was applied to the sound at 22Khz, the maximum range of human hearing, the brain itself reacted with patterns typically attributed to frustration and anger.

My point of course is that at 96khz you can record a maximum frequency of 48khz. At 44khz you can record a maximum frequency of 22khz. You can capture more of those high frequencies at 96khz...you can't hear them, but you can perceive them.

But how much difference this makes when you've just got an average 24/96 soundcard and some cheap monitors in a basement somewhere...well, I dunno.

Personally I record at 24/44.1 for sake of convenience. I've tried hearing the difference between 44 and 96 on single files, which is nearly impossible. Perhaps over an entire mix it would make a bit of difference, but I've got enough other "problems" that would prevent me from noticing any difference anyhow.

Slackmaster 2000
 
I haven't tried recording at 96khz yet but I was playing with an Avalon 737 preamp and the high shelf EQ on it is at 32Khz. When you boost/cut there the difference is HUGE. So much so that I find it hard to believe that the shelf freq is actually that high.

It all comes down to bandwidth. If your mics, preamps and monitoring system are capable of reproducing up to 96khz then it is an option to try out. If all your gear caps everything off at 20khz then their probably wouldn't be much point in it.
 
There was a HUGE discussion on this matter a few months back on cubase.net....well over 200 posts on the matter with sound engineers really arguing back and forth. Since they all knew much more than I, I sat back quietly and read and this is what I came away with:
When it comes to bit-rate (16bit vs. 24bit and 32bit), you really want to go with the highest bit rate your system can handle. If you have a good dithering program you will end up with a better product at higher bit rates than at lower ones (this I have tested and can attest to).
When it comes to sample-rate, it appears the experts disagree much more on what is best. If your final medium is DVD or 5.1-DVD then they all seem to agree that 96khz is best. It is supposed to give a much more life like representation of what is being recorded. "Supposed" audio experts claim they really hear a difference, particularly in the area of acoustic instruments like orchestral instruments. Now if the final medium is a standard CD (16bit/44.1khz) then they really started arguing. Most of them claimed that in the current environment, downsampling from 96 to 44.1 provides a worse result than just recording in 44.1 to start due to the process of downsampling. They say in the near future this may change, but for now it is a fact of life. There were a few dissenters who really argued hard that they thought they had better results recording in 96 and downsampling to 44.1, but they were far in the minority.

End result for me: I record in 32bit floating at 44.1khz for now.
 
I recorder several songs twice at 24/44.1 and 24/96. Then I used Wavelab to convert songs to 16/44.1 and recorder everything on the same CD. The different was VERY audible through not-very-high-end Hi-fi. The difference was not just in frequencies. Songs recorded at 24/96 sounded much smoother and the bass seemed lower. 24/44 songs sounded more rough, but punchier especially in the lows. I couldn't decide which variant was better overall: depending on the songs character I liked one way or the other...
The bottom line: there is an audible difference, and you don't need super high grade hardware to hear it.
 
[Disclaimer: This is all theoretical; I haven't done any actual listening comparisons]

I think there is more benefit to 96k than just representing frequencies > 20kHz. See, Nyquist says that half the sampling frequency is the highest frequency that can be unambiguously represented. That doesn't mean it's represented perfectly by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, anything at exactly half the sampling frequency (22,050 for 44.1) can only be represented as a square wave since you're only going to get a resolution of 2 samples per cycle.

At 44.1, we're getting a resolution of less than 4 samples per cycle even down at 12kHz. The big advantage I see to 96k or even 192k, conceptually, is better accuracy with the frequecies we can hear.

Is it worth the extra overhead for home recording? You'd have to listen and judge that for yourself. I'd imagine there would be a noticeable difference in the accuracy of EQs in particular with the increased sample rate.
 
what i am particularily interested in:

benefits of recording at 44.1 or 48Khz, doing a mixdown to 88 or 96Khz, applying effects / limiting etc, then going down to 16/44.1

why?
because effects applied at higher sampling rates should be "better", or at least more accurately modify the sound the way they're supposed to.
however, i am uncertain if the 88/96->44.1 conversion process is worth it or not.

also...

there are those that say recording at 48Khz is a bad idea because you have to end up downsampling to 44.1, but what if you first upsample from 48Khz to 88Khz, then down to 44.1? Seems to me that conversion process could help you retain a pretty clean signal.

thoughts on either of these ideas? (i know, they're really the same idea, just different takes on it)
 
You're going to have a better advantage using a higher wordsize for a given sampling rate than you will for a low wordsize and higher sampling rate.

ie - 24-bit/44.1kHz will be more advantageous than 16-bit/96kHz in terms of obvious sonic differences.........
 
i realize that, but i'm wondering if anyone has an theories or answers to my questions, given an assumed wordsize of 24 bit.
 
Bass Master "K"

Which software do you use that has 32 bit capabilities? As far as I knew, all of the bigies (i.e. Logic Audio, Cubase, ProTools, Nuendo, Cakewalk et cetera) all had only up to 24/96 (with protools HD being the exception of having 192kHz capabilities) but I have never heard anyone claiming to have 32 bit Bit-rate yet. What cha using?
 
There is no 32-bit word size -- some s/w uses 32-bit INTERNAL representation of digital signals strictly for DSP mathematics... the waveforms are still 24-bit (if they were 24-bit going in!)
 
Lots of software can produce 32bit wave files. These are handy for storing files that have been processed, without losing resolution.

That is, I can mixdown to a 32bit file in my multitracking software, and then open that 32bit file in my wave editor for final touchup. Even though all of my source files were 24bit, the extra resolution does come into play as soon as any DSP is applied.

No matter what though, that 32bit file is truncated or dithered during playback....and recording a 32bit file makes no sense unless you're applying processing to the incoming audio.

Slackmaster 2000
 
I am using Cubase SX and Soundforge 6.0 with an Aardvark Q-10 soundcard.

Cubase has a 32bit floating point format. It is supposed to make a longer wordsize for more resolution. I don't understand it all myself...Blue Bear knows much more about this stuff than I do.
 
Sure... but you can't do anything with 32-bit audio files outside of the s/w that reads it........... which was my point.

Many novices are under the mistaken impression that because their s/w says 32-bit, it stays 32-bit. You wouldn't, for example, be able to digitally transfer a 32-bit Cubase wav to a digital multitrack such as the HD24, for example..........

It is better to think of 32-bit WAVs as s/w-specific WAV formats...............
 
Thanks for clearing that up guys.

For a minute there I thought I fell asleep and woke up with 32 bit data converters installed everywhere.
 
i think the biggest difference/benefit u'll get from recording at 96khz oppose to 44.1 is when micing something the highs are more present, but especially when adding efx and processing the plug-ins sound alot smoother
 
Blue Bear Sound said:
Sure... but you can't do anything with 32-bit audio files outside of the s/w that reads it........... which was my point.

Many novices are under the mistaken impression that because their s/w says 32-bit, it stays 32-bit. You wouldn't, for example, be able to digitally transfer a 32-bit Cubase wav to a digital multitrack such as the HD24, for example..........

It is better to think of 32-bit WAVs as s/w-specific WAV formats...............

Blue Bear, maybe you can help me with this then. Both SX and SF 6.0 are able to work with 32 floating point. If I record in SX at 32 bit, then export to SF 6.0 at 32 bit, do some processing and mastering and then resend it back to cubase keeping it at 32bit where I will dither it down to 16bit/44.1 for putting on a CD (ie..it never leaves 32bit until the final dithering). Should I end up with a better result than if I just did it at 24 all the way through until dithering? I would think the answer would be yes, but as I said earlier...you seem to know much more about this than I do.
 
u missed what blue bear was saying (i think). He's saying there's no such thing as recording at 32 bit because no interface yet supports it. the signal will be recorded in 24 bit regardless of what the software does to it after the fact its in the program.
 
Bass Master - You are correct. Preserving your audio at 32bit when moving between programs reduces the number of times the file is dithered/truncated and then padded.

It is important to understand, however, that when you're recording at 32bit the software is just making up up the least significant 8 bits (e.g. probably just padding with 0's). They don't become important until DSP is applied to the file.

An example. You record a 24bit file in your software, and you then apply some VST effect to it destructively (e.g. you change the file). All VST effects expect 32bit floating point input streams (normalized between -1 and 1 FYI), so when applying the effect, your software converts the 24bit samples it reads from the file to 32bit samples, sends those 32bit samples off to be processed, then dithers or truncates the 32bit output back down to 24bit and saves the new values to the file. Whatever minute details that were contained in those last 8 bits are lost. However, if you were to start with a 32bit file in this example, the dither/truncate stage would not occur, and you would preserve those little 8 bits that may prove to be important.

Now does that mean everybody should start recording 32bit waves? Not necessarily. If you record at 24bit and mix a project totally in realtime (e.g. all effects are applied in realtime), then you are sacrificing absolutely nothing. The software takes all of the 24bit samples from your files, converts them to 32bit samples, processes everything at 32bit, then dithers/truncates back to 24bit for playback. Yes there is that last dither step, but it is necessary regardless because your converters are only 24bit! In this case, the only time you'd need a 32bit file might be when you mixdown. Mixing down at 32bit will allow you to preserve some fidelity as you move your mixdown between various mastering applications.

Slackmaster 2000
 
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