Behringer V-Amp or Digitech Genesis 3 GeNetX

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Middleman, glad you like it. (so far ofcourse). I understand why you think the POD might suit metal/rock better (The JCM800 and the Soldano sims cover some good ground there), but when I was fiddling with the Genesis 3 in a store, I warped a '78 Marshall Master Volume with a Dual Rectifier, and it got me right in 80's speed/thrash metal land, where I wanted it to be...
I think the Genesis 3 just needs a bit more tweaking for good metal sounds, but it CAN be done.
The POD had an OVERALL muddy and dirty quality to me. The Genesis 3 was much clearer. I was totally amazed when I tried the CLEAN TUBE AMP and the BLACKFACE sims on the Genesis 3. They DID have that elusive tube break-up point where everyone's drooling over...

Middleman, how do you like the spring reverb-emulation of the Genesis 3? I loved it, eventhough I'm always very picky about spring reverbs, as I do some surf music too...
Best digital spring emulation I've heard so far.
Another thing to consider:
the POD is an amp sim with some basic fx.
The Genesis 3 is a better amp sim + great comprehensive multiFX.

If you'd add the Control X ($250) to the Genesis 3, you could just bypass the amp sim, and use it as a multiFX unit for live gigging...
 
Yeah, I was looking at that foot controller. Frankly, its too big. I need the same thing in about half the size. Volume/Wah pedal and about 4 floor switches in a board about half that size would be better.

Actually I like my stand alone Wah so if I could just have a board with 4 switching pedals I would be happy. I wonder if Digitech has anything in the works.
 
I 'm a POD lover, obviously, but maybe I'll have to check out the Genesis 3. I've never liked Digitech's amp modelling (a friend has the RP-300 and the distortions suck bad!) but maybe I'll check this one out. I still think Line 6 have come closer than anybody else. The Behringer V-Amp2 sounds good too. A big improvement over the original 1.0.
 
can't you hear the weirdness?

I am with BLue Bear, Ever listen to how screwya Digital pitch shift sounds when you screw with it? Listen to that and then listen to a pod etc.... Get a cheap ass amp and a cheap mic if your are monetarily poor, SM57 is fine, a damn Radio Shck Highball *my first mic 10 years ago) is better then and "emulation or imitation of tral" that' s my 2 cents. Digital modeling and such... is a neato thing at first but eventually tricks and things that cloud the nuances and tone of a guitarm room and amp- setup... or eor even an overdriven od tape recorder take the insporation out of guitar for me.


lD
 
Re: can't you hear the weirdness?

Lorddiagram said:
I am with BLue Bear, Ever listen to how screwya Digital pitch shift sounds when you screw with it? Listen to that and then listen to a pod etc.... Get a cheap ass amp and a cheap mic if your are monetarily poor, SM57 is fine, a damn Radio Shck Highball *my first mic 10 years ago) is better then and "emulation or imitation of tral" that' s my 2 cents. Digital modeling and such... is a neato thing at first but eventually tricks and things that cloud the nuances and tone of a guitarm room and amp- setup... or eor even an overdriven od tape recorder take the insporation out of guitar for me.


lD
Click to expand...

A cheap Radioshack mic and a cheap amp? Give me a friggin break.

That'll give you a cheap sound.
 
Re: can't you hear the weirdness?

Lorddiagram said:
I am with BLue Bear, Ever listen to how screwya Digital pitch shift sounds when you screw with it? Listen to that and then listen to a pod etc.... Get a cheap ass amp and a cheap mic if your are monetarily poor, SM57 is fine, a damn Radio Shck Highball *my first mic 10 years ago) is better then and "emulation or imitation of tral" that' s my 2 cents. Digital modeling and such... is a neato thing at first but eventually tricks and things that cloud the nuances and tone of a guitarm room and amp- setup... or eor even an overdriven od tape recorder take the insporation out of guitar for me.


lD
Click to expand...


I used a cheap amp and a cheap microphones for 5 years, I never got a decent sound. amp simulators make a difference.
 
To me amp sims are definitely better than a crappy amp and a crappy mic. They are not, however, better than a good amp and a good mic....well, except they can be more convenient.....hmmmmmmm.....and they give a greater variety of sounds......That must be why I have both! :)
 
Amen to that, Lt!

Im tired of people saying that an amp sim is nowhere near a great tube amp.

Think of this:
-convenience
-cost

Yes, a $3000 Bogner, miced with a $1500 Royer R121 through a $3000 Neve 1073 pre WILL sound great, IF done by a great engineer...

Can you crank the Bogner at 2am on your attic, when you have neighbours? No.
Does the whole mic, cable, tube amp, mic pre-enchillada cost less than $600 (price of Sansamp PSA-1)? No.
Does Joe Average hear the difference once it's on a CD? No.
Do you have the skills now to mic a great amp well with a great mic? Maybe.

I see 3 no's and 1 maybe. Answer=Digitech Genesis 3. (or POD, if you prefer a 'dirtier' sound...

Most of us can afford a SM57 (or maybe a MD421), a Peavey Deluxe Tube amp (or whatever it's called) and a Joemeek or an Audiobuddy. I'll guarantee that the sound from a Genesis 3 will be better than that beginner's set-up. No offense, but you guys gotta stop comparing apples with oranges.
 
I don't own any of them, but I'm looking into getting a Vamp 2. I heard some recordings online, and it sounds really nice. I think for messing around recordings, and late night practice at home with headphones, it's a nice little tool.

I'm all for tubes though. I had an all tube mesa head for a while, and now a marshall combo, and trust me, they kick ass over anything. Simulation is great for messing around, covering songs, trying to get someone elses' sound, but for the real deal, nothing like tubes.

Polaris20, you were saying that thing about the 35mm camera and the digitals, that's true. Digital cams are going cheaper and cheaper, and they're cooler and cooler. The bad part is, some people enjoy, and will always enjoy the older stuff.

For instance, old marshalls still sell like crazy. Mesa Mark IIC+, kicks ass, tremoverb amps. It seems that everything that was made, not made anymore, is still wanted, one way or another.

Technology is great, but it can take away the fun of things too. Once cars fly, how can you go off-roading?? How will you enjoy getting stuck in the mud, crossing a river, going up snowy hills, when all you have to do is fly over them :) :)

Simul stuff is cool for what it is. Then again, different people like different things, and if there was no variety between us, we would all have the same sound, woudn't me? ;)

-E
 
a great big Huh?

how are amp simulators gonna make us all sound the same? With an amp sim you get multiple amps, effects, reverbs, etc. With a 'real' amp you get one sound. Yet, the amp sim is gonna make us all the same? huh?

and amp sims are taking away the fun of real amps? The fun of lugging cabs and amps into gigs and then finding a tube is out? The fun of having to carry multiple amps to get more than one tone type? The fun of not being able to record when inspiration hits due to other people living in this world? Huh?

An amp simulator is not that much different than a non-tube amp... it's not that much different than putting a distortion or overdrive pedal into your signal.

And as far as not sounding exactlly like the modeled amps... you say that like it's a bad thing... for the record, I've never heard 2 tube amps that sounded the same either... I look at the amp sims as having greater variety of tones at my fingertips. Does it sound like a real amp? Sure, for all it matters... but then again, I listen to the radio and don't hear that many 'real' sounds blaring back at me. I hear fake drums, guitars, bass, keys, strings, vocals, etc and they all still sound amazingly like music to me. Year ago when the first non-vocal musical instrument was created, I'm sure a bunch of short sighted people all gathered around to decree that it sounded nothing like a human voice and thus it sucked. These are the same free thinkers that thought electric guitars were not musical instruments.... that guitar distortion was a mistake.... that Hendrix just made noise.... that punk would never die.... that rap was just a fad.... that synths were just for trendies....

welcome to the 21st century, where the tools dont matter, just the final song. I'll gladly put my synthesized tones up against your purity of tubes and mics and will bet that neither of us have any advantage in gaining a hit.
 
You have totally misquoted what ecasini said. He just said that it's good that different people like different things 'cause it creates variety...and it does. He's right. Furhtermore.....I own a POD, a J-station and a V-Amp and I like them all but no way they sound just like real tube amps. If you think so.... it just shows that your ear training has a way to go. Once again, before you launch into a tirade about how I said modelers suck, I'm not saying modelers are bad. But no difference? Bullshit!! I use my modelers on gigs occasionally when I'm up against time consraints and need to set up minimal equipment and although they're passible...they all have that processed sound that I can identify as soon as I hear it. They're ok....but they do not have the snap and response of a good tube amp. If you can't hear the difference, then fine for you. But there are those that say Mp3s sound as good as CD too......if that's the case for them....fine, but I hear the difference and that's all there is to it for me.
 
actually, I think you missed the point of my post. I said they sounded like 'real' amps for all that it matters... which is not much, as my next line pointed out - that most listeners of music could care less about how the music is created, as long as it's good.

"And as far as not sounding exactlly like the modeled amps... you say that like it's a bad thing... for the record, I've never heard 2 tube amps that sounded the same either... I look at the amp sims as having greater variety of tones at my fingertips. Does it sound like a real amp? Sure, for all it matters... but then again, I listen to the radio and don't hear that many 'real' sounds blaring back at me. I hear fake drums, guitars, bass, keys, strings, vocals, etc and they all still sound amazingly like music to me"

I don't believe they sound exactly like 'real' amps, but I also think that is a strength, not a weakness. If I absolutely have to have a marshall or mesa tone, I'll use one... but very few instances in my playing career have I felt that I absolutely had to have one specific piece of gear to sound right. I make music from my heart, whatever tools it takes to get it out are unimportant.

Sure, guitar playing purists can hear the difference between one amp and another and a 'real' amp and a simulation... but they are not in the majority of music listeners and most of them don't listen to music for enjoyment, but for study. Those are not the target audience for my music.

And, if you'd continue to have read my post you would have gotten further proof of how short sighted I think it is to just automatically decide that one technique or instrument is inferior to another. Trends in gear and recording/mixing techniques come and go, but good songs last. Very few people care if Louie Louie was recorded in mono or if Jimmy Page recorded with a telecaster and a tiny practice amp or that Neil Young was an early digital advocate... they just know that Louie Louie, Stairwary to Heaven and Rockin' In the Free World are great songs.
 
All valid points but you have also missed the point of my posts. I have not one time said that modelers are inherently worse than amps. What I have said is that for me on live gigs they don't do what I need out of an amp. So for me, on live gigs, an amp (a good amp) is superior. Other than that....I pretty much agree with you.
However....your argument that listeners don't care what the music was done with, while true, is irrelevent. What matters is if the artist cares. For example, viewer of paintings don't care whether the artist used a camel-hair brush or something else....they just want to look at the finished painting....but that hardly means that the artist doesn't care what he uses. He certainly would have his preferences and that's all I'm saying.
Also.....I agree that I never have a specific need on a gig for a particular amp type, other than output requirements. But that doesn't change the fact that, for me, I don't like the processed sound that comes with modelers. That's certainly not true for everybody but it is for me. I'm not saying that my needs define what all guitarists should use. I'm just saying for me, I hate that sound on live gigs. I use my modelers all the time for recording but I avoid using them on gigs.
 
Lt Bob, I think we can all agree that the whole digital modelling stuff is mainly for recording. I myself have used a Boss GT-3 (which had some early form of COSM modelling) for 5 years live, and most people thought my sound was too thin. No balls...
Now I'm back to analog stompboxes, and I friggin' rock! (Live that is)
Still, In approximately 40 days I'll be the owner of a Digitech Genesis 3 just for recording. I really liked its 'tubelike' sound as far as that is possible... beats the POD fow show, my nizzle! ;)
 
Speeddemon said:
Lt Bob, I think we can all agree that the whole digital modelling stuff is mainly for recording. I myself have used a Boss GT-3 (which had some early form of COSM modelling) for 5 years live, and most people thought my sound was too thin. No balls...
Now I'm back to analog stompboxes, and I friggin' rock! (Live that is)
Still, In approximately 40 days I'll be the owner of a Digitech Genesis 3 just for recording. I really liked its 'tubelike' sound as far as that is possible... beats the POD fow show, my nizzle! ;)
Click to expand...

there are many patches for the Genesis 3 at www.digitech.com
I'll also try to help you out, whats your music style?
 
I gotta agree...I had a GT 3 and the damn thing was just overprocessed on every setting. People could hear it in my recordings...always telling me so!!! I chucked that sucker on ebay and picked up a used POD 2.0. I am not gonna tell you that it is the greatest thing ever made like the literature does, because it is not. I pick up a lot of buzz with it in my apartment and I cant get a nice clean sound out of it. But, I really like it because it does what I need it to do. I like the sound and I get good feedback from others on it as well. It all comes down to personal preference...If you like your guitar to sound like a transistor radio then that is your preference and NO ONE can say that you are wrong for liking it. I once owned a Marshall JCM 800 Half stack but it was too big and I couldnt turn it up given my living conditions...For some songs I need distortion and for others I need clean...delay, reverb...flange...phase whatever...the POD does it for me...I have rambled long enough...its up to YOU really
 
NobleSavage, maybe I didnt' explain myself too well. Lt. Bob got most of what I meant. You're right, that most people don't care about how music is made, but I think a crowd will get REALLY pissed off and annoyed if your distortion were to be like sandpaper. I AM NOT SAYING that digital stuff sounds like sandpaper, so please :) don't go off about that. That is just an example. In fact, I think that a line6 digital head sounds ALOT better than some tubes amps, like crate, and I'll take one of those any day.

It's true, I'm sure if you put my crappy mic and my tube amp against the digital stuff, the difference might be tiny, or yours will sound better. Then again, amazing musicians with amazing tones always record miked, not digital.

And, if I were saying that digital amps SUCKED, I wouldn't be saying that I want a V-amp 2.0, would I??? ;)

Lt. Bob got what I meant with variety. I don't know how long you've been playing, or have music experience, and by all means, you don't have to tell me, but a few years ago, I really coudln't tell the difference between a marshall and a mesa, but now, there's a HUGE difference between them, or any other distortion/overdrive for that matter.

Pedals in the chain??? You're right about that too, they sound like the digital stuff, definitely not bad, and really kick ass at times, but I still take tubes over that.

To top it off, my fav. overdrive sound is from the marshall jubilee, which has diode clipping, and as I understand, that pretty much means it has a distortion pedal inside the amp, as well as tubes. Liking this amp, I don't see how I can be so agaisnt digital stuff.

One last thing, the last time I tried a line6 head, through a 412 cab, it sounded REALLY, REALLY nice in some settings, like the rect, some of the cleans, and a few others.

Again, if we ALL liked the same thing, they all guitar music in the world would have the exact same sound. :)

-E
 
Jeff Waters from Annihilator used the POD Pro on his latest album "waking the furry", but I think the guitar sounds terrible on that album
 
DarkCide, did you hear his sound on "Criteria For a Black Widow"? I wasn't that impressed either. His sound was cool on the 1989 "Alice In Hell". That was a speedmetal classic, next to Flotsam's "Doomsday for the Deceiver".

DarkCide, have you been able to create a decent Iron Maiden-type of sound in your Genesis 3?
Back when I had my GT-3, I used a modified version of the "Metal Pop" patch, which sounded like an old Marshall with lots of rich mids and nice gain. That was one of the few impressive sounds for direct recording from the GT-3. I think within 35-40 days I'll get my Genesis 3. Can't wait to create some decent metalsounds. Now I'm stuck with my Korg D16's internal REMS-sounds, and although the clean and crunch sounds are FRIGGIN FABOULOUS, the higher gain sounds suck. I wanted a decent thrash/deathmetal tone (think Iced Earth, Kreator, Children of Bodom) but it all gets either to scooped or too muddy.
I have one patch created, I called it "JCM800 Crunch" which responds really well to playing dynamics and use of your volume knob. At first I thought the whole Korg-version of modelling sucked big time, but finally I've got the hang of SOME of it. Still, after endless tweaking, the high-gain sounds are at most usefull for doing stuff like the Final Countdown solo... :rolleyes:

But let it be said once more:
The Digitech Genesis 3 smokes the Line6 POD 2.0! :p
 
I'm with the Bear all the way on this one. He is making a point that alot of you want to ignore. Miking a good amp is always going to be better than a simulated sound of that particular amp. And just because you don't have the convenience of using a real amp and the amp modelers work better for you, that does not translate to them being better.
It's all rather simple. You are going to have the best sound from the real thing. That's why you don't see simulators being used by headline acts. Sure variety is the spice of life but some spices are better than others.
So instead of dissin the Bear, you should respect his experience and take his advice.
 
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